[lounge music] ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ [Narrator] "On Story" is brought to you in part by the Alice Kleberg Reynolds Foundation, a Texas family providing innovative funding since 1979.

"On Story" is also brought to you in part by the Bogle Family Vineyards, six generation farmers and third generation winemakers based in Clarksburg, California.

Makers of sustainably grown wines that are a reflection of the their family values since 1968.

[waves] [kids screaming] [wind] [witch cackling] [sirens wail] [gunshots] [dripping] [suspenseful music] [telegraph beeping, typing] [piano gliss] From Austin Film Festival, this is "On Story," a look inside the creative process from today's leading writers, creators and filmmakers.

This week on "On Story," producing powerhouse Kathleen Kennedy joins us to reflect on her vibrant career producing countless classic films such as "ET," "Back to the Future," "Indiana Jones," and "Schindler's List," and now as president of Lucasfilms overseeing the "Star Wars" franchise.

- I guess we're all somewhat afraid of failure, but I actually look at it as being kind of interesting.

You know, when something doesn't work, I'm just as curious, and intrigued, and fascinated to kind of pull it apart and understand why.

I also think that what's interesting about storytelling and making movies is you're not right or wrong.

It's an opinion.

It's a point of view.

And I like being involved in something that isn't so prescriptive.

[paper crumples] [typing] [carriage returns, ding] [typewriter ding] It never occurred to me to go into the movie business until I got to college, and our campus had a PBS station, and I wandered in one day, and I saw what people were doing.

I thought, oh, this looks pretty cool.

And so I got involved in that a bit, but it just kind of evolved.

It was not something that I set out to do.

And I think, you know, if anything speaks to producing and storytelling, it's, you wanna experience as many different things as you possibly can.

And I think that's what makes good producing is being curious.

You know, you're just, you're open to what's going on in the world.

You're open to people.

You're open to ideas.

You're open to just following where things go.

- Your first big production credit was "Poltergeist," right?

- No, it was "ET."

- What was it that you were doing in the every day of it that you felt like was propelling you forward and making you a part of that project in a creative way?

- Steven and I had started working on a project we called "Night Skies," which evolved into "ET."

So when we were over in England, we spent most of our free time in between the shots, and lunch hours, and things like that, making "Raiders of the Lost Ark," and talking a lot about this little movie he wanted to make called "Night Skies" at the time.

And we got the first draft of "Night Skies," and it was more of a kind of a horror movie actually.

And the last scene in the script was this little alien that gets left behind and Steven goes, "Ooh, that's the movie I wanna make."

And so we completely shifted gears, brought in Melissa Matheson, who at the time, ironically, was going out with Harrison Ford, and she had done "Black Stallion," for any of you that remember that wonderful movie.

And so we brought her in, and she did the draft of "ET," and it was a fantastic first draft.

- Wow.

- And we were in production pretty soon after that.

- So in the tone of that, like how much was that your responsibility in that early stage of your career to help drive what that story ultimately was gonna be?

- I mean, here's the interesting thing, and I think it's what's tricky for people getting into the business today, is when I started working with Steven, it was the two of us.

That was it.

It wasn't a company.

It wasn't 15 million people.

So I got to do everything.

And you know, Frank and I talk a lot about that too, because when he was working with Polly and Peter Bogdanovich it was a small group of people, very independent.

Like, I mean, it probably does mirror the independent filmmaking world today because people, they don't realize that "ET" costs $10 million.

It's not a movie that costs 200.

Today, with these movies that cost, you know, 150, $200 million, you need armies of people.

You're basically creating small companies to make these movies.

But at that time, you know, it was just the two of us, and, you know, I did everything.

And so all those story conversations were between Steven, myself, and the writer.

Anybody that we would bring on to start creating the look of something, you know, that was one more person.

So it was always a small handful of people.

And it's a funny thing, even on big movies today, I kind of treat it that way 'cause I think there's, you know, a half a dozen people that are really in the middle of those key creative decisions, and what's guiding a vision, and a look, and a feel, and an emotion inside the storytelling.

And I think if it gets too broad, then it gets diluted, and you sort of lose that perspective.

- And a lot of development is your gut.

- Yeah.

- And I think most humans have a hard time trusting their gut, you know, and at that early point, like how were you getting in touch with knowing I think this is the right way to go, or gosh, that just doesn't feel right?

- I've never thought of it that way.

I guess I've felt comfortable making choices and decisions.

I love producing in service to a vision, but making choices and making decisions, I guess I've always been comfortable living with that.

You know?

I guess we're all somewhat afraid of failure to a certain extent.

That's not fun.

But I actually look at it as being kind of interesting.

You know, when something doesn't work, I'm just as curious, and intrigued, and fascinated to kind of pull it apart and understand why.

I also think that what's interesting about storytelling and making movies is you're not right or wrong.

It's an opinion.

It's a point of view.

And I like being in- involved in something that isn't so prescriptive.

[typewriter ding] - Moving into the films like "Color Purple," and, you know, "Hook," and "Twister," and all these truly favorites, right, "Sixth Sense," I remember being in a meeting in LA after that movie came out at a major studio, and somebody jokingly said, "Oh, we had that guy come in, and he pitched that movie, and we said, 'That'll never work.'"

And they were almost proud of it, you know?

I remember thinking, oh, but it did.

So that's a really good example of something that was recognizing a number of things as going into that project.

A, does this person who's fairly new, can he pull this off?

You know, can this story be pulled off?

- Oh, it's always with doubt, but I think it's what you said.

It's gut.

I mean, first of all, when we sat down with Night, the first thing you're doing, it's not any different than sitting and meeting somebody for the first time outside of this business.

But you're looking for taste.

You're looking for a sense of storytelling.

You're looking for somebody in that position, he was coming in as the writer/director, somebody who you feel is gonna be comfortable and confident in making decisions, because as a producer, you're gonna begin to put together that team, and you have to rely on that person to be able to drive it.

And it was pretty clear with Night that he didn't have a problem with that.

[laughs] He had written a wonderful screenplay.

And so we had the benefit of that.

When Frank and I came into the project, the script was already written, and we loved it.

And he was looking for experienced people to come into his life and help him pull this together.

And then we put some constraints around the budget so the studio would only make the movie if it was X amount of dollars.

And when we came up with the idea of casting Bruce Willis, that was something that Frank and I thought would be a nice added benefit.

[chilling music] - I see dead people.

♪ ♪ - In your dreams?

♪ ♪ While you're awake?

♪ ♪ Dead people like in graves, in coffins?

- Walking around like regular people.

- I mean, how much of your time are you as a producer spending, especially at the level that you're doing at negotiating?

- I feel like we negotiate 24/7 for something.

I don't see anything wrong in speaking up.

I mean, I've had many conversations where I've been with a director that says, "I hate that idea," which usually is code for, oh, that actually might be interesting, but I didn't think of it.

Give me a minute.

Let me go think about it.

I mean, I think that happened.

I think that happens in everyday experiences.

When you're dealing with the creative art form, and there isn't a right or wrong, that's the whole point is that you wanna be pushed.

Now, if you really firmly believe something is not what you intended, and certainly if a creative partner could say to me, here are the reasons why I don't agree with you, and I clearly see what their intention was, and then it's illuminating for me too, then that's a process of understanding.

And that's really all you're trying to do, is you're communicating ideas until everybody involved understands intention, and that's producing 'cause I always feel that that's what you're doing.

You're constantly trying to process somebody else's vision and then translate that for the multitude of people that have to execute.

- But you're always protecting the project.

- I'm always protecting the project, but I'm mainly protecting the point of view.

- Is it an emotional experience for you?

- Great movies are emotional.

They just are.

You can see things that you think are really, really good, but unless it deeply moves you, that's what moves it into being great.

And it's hard to do, you know.

There's no question it's hard to do.

But when you find that, and you find somebody who has the capacity to be able to be in touch emotionally, to drive something with, something to say.

I think that's always another thing that I look for in the people that I talk to that we wanna work with.

It's usually trying to find somebody who genuinely has something to say.

- We're honoring you today.

And Ryan Johnson is here for that.

He has a very distinct voice and a very broad sensibility of filmmaking.

Those are the kind of people you just noticed immediately, right?

- The minute I started seeing some of Ryan's early work, it was obvious he was incredibly talented.

- Yeah.

- And meeting him.

You need to get in the room with people, spend time, go beyond just looking at one or two things.

I mean, people can get pigeonholed in this business very quickly too.

And I always wanna give somebody the benefit of the doubt of having a talent that goes beyond just the one or two things they've had the opportunity to make.

- So I'd love to hear just in that sense of your input in some of the earlier projects that you had where you felt like I really was part of that changing.

- There's a handful of movies, like for instance, "Munich," "Color Purple," "Empire of the Sun."

Those are projects I brought to Steven.

I don't think he was initially looking to do any one of those.

And so the process grew, and our conversations and trust in one another creatively led to those movies getting developed.

[typewriter ding] - "Empire of the Sun" is such a unique movie and also felt different.

So, can you talk about like what it was that attracted you to that?

- I read things all the time, and I read a bit of Ballard, and thought he was a really interesting author.

And then I went and met him.

That's truly one of the things I enjoy doing is if I see something or read something, and I'm intrigued, I usually pick up the phone and just say, "Hey, you know, can I come sit with you and meet with you?"

'Cause, to me, that's the next step, is who is this?

You know, where did this come from?

Same kind of questions you're asking.

And then with Ballard, he was just a remarkable man, and his book was just so alluring when I first read it.

[inspiring music] ♪ ♪ [character speaking Japanese] [character speaking Japanese] ♪ ♪ - So are there ones where you felt like you were really the lead?

- I think it's just human that as you're working on things, I mean, I don't want to compare this to children, but you do gravitate toward certain projects where you just, it speaks to you personally in ways that drive you.

And you know, I would say that I always get asked, "Oh, what's your favorite movie?"

And then, "What's the favorite project you worked on?"

I never answer that question because I don't wanna compare.

But I will say that it's just natural that there's certain things, and "Empire of the Sun" was one of them.

[typewriter ding] - So you're now in this world, you're definitely in a world, and everything is stemming from original concepts, and I think that puts you in a box compared to where you were before, where you were so many original scripts, and film ideas that you took from seed to success, and in this world, you know, how did you start to approach that?

- Yeah, it's interesting.

Well, first of all, we are in a world today of franchises kind of driving things, and there's pros and cons to all of that.

But, you know, audiences do show up.

So that's an indication that people do want that.

And I think that persistent narrative storytelling is interesting.

I think you can look at it with "Harry Potter."

You can look at it with, you know, lots of stories that were created in literature, and people enjoy the process of carrying through with characters, and storytelling, and plots, and that kind of thing.

We used to just call it sequels, but now it's franchises.

But at any rate, you know, I think it still is so important that it starts with one story and one movie.

Because if that story and movie doesn't work, then what's the point of carrying things further?

So that becomes the big challenge in terms of what I walked into, is that George had created what many call, you know, one of the greatest movies in cinematic history.

And you're stepping into something that you need to maintain.

You're not building, you're not creating, and I think evolving with the times, especially with some of these franchises now that have been around for quite a while, like we created "Indiana Jones."

You could, I guess call "Back to the Future" a franchise today.

You could call "Jurassic Park" that Frank's now carrying on.

And we talk about this all the time because the challenge is sort of like going to your favorite concert, you know, where the band is gonna play some of their new stuff, and all you're doing is sitting there waiting for their old stuff.

[audience laughing] And so you've gotta find the balance of what it is that people really want and trying to be unique in those ideas.

- Well, and great storytelling isn't going away.

- It's always the foundation.

- Yeah.

- And it's gonna continue to be the foundation.

- One of the things that I think in the universe, whichever universe we're talking about here, that you all are doing is putting a lot of things out, like "Acolyte" and "Mandalorian," and "Andor," and things that are trying to take pieces and move another piece forward in finding what it is that people are gonna respond to.

- I actually think that is interesting if I were to look back at what happened with COVID and the acceleration of streaming, which we've all seen the impact of that, I think it afforded us a unique opportunity to step into a space that "Star Wars" had never been in, where we could explore different narratives and different stories without the huge level of expectation that was on a film when it would come into the movie space.

And I think that's been a huge, huge help for us, and exciting because just as you say, it's given us a lot of diversity in the things that we can explore.

And as I said, this is a galaxy.

And so there's huge opportunity for telling lots of different stories.

And I think it's given us a chance to kind of put things out there and see what comes back.

Because it's a gigantic fan base that's extremely important.

And so that becomes a significant part of the process.

- So I thought Tony Gilroy was a really interesting choice for that world.

And, again, not an obvious choice, and based on his past work and like, how are you looking at how you are trying to connect the dots with your audience?

- The question is what do you take and use, and what do you just acknowledge?

And with bringing somebody like Tony Gilroy in, we were doing "Rogue One."

When I first came into the company, we were going to carry on the saga that George had created because that was the conversation initially.

And then the question around, well, what else?

I actually initially had intended to do what I call "District 9" movies.

And I wanted to do these smaller, you know, character-driven, edgier kind of stories.

I still think that would've been cool.

Unfortunately, "Rogue One" was the first one, and it did a gazillion dollars.

[Man] All ships prepare for jump to hyper space.

[ship engines revving] [dramatic music] [explosion blasts] [dramatic music] [Kathleen] I mean, this is where success, you're like uh-oh.

And so then there was a lot of talk around, oh, we want more of that.

So the definition around what it was we were initially strategically trying to do, and our storytelling kind of went by the wayside.

[dramatic music continues] - Your father would've been proud of you, Jen.

[dramatic music] - I am hoping, and this is what I think some of the work inside streaming has afforded us the opportunity to get back to something like that.

I get frustrated with the notion that everything we have to do has to be huge, and, you know, some giant movie.

I think there's a great opportunity to be doing some smaller... That's the reason we call them "Star Wars" stories is because I think there's a real opportunity for us to explore new talent and new stories with that kind of expectation.

- How does that restructure sort of the world of how you're running, you know, Lucasfilm in the sense that you can have a number of shows like that all on at once, but you have to keep managing the connection to the world?

- Yeah, oh no, that's really important.

I mean, you know, we sit down, we have a discussion.

Say for instance, we're about three quarters of the way through shooting "Mandalorian" and "Grogu," right now, the movie.

[intense music] It's going very well.

The baby is behaving.

We continually discuss, without having it just be fan service, we continually discuss what are those inherent storytelling moments that connect to the greater storytelling.

- What is it that you feel in these last few years that you have worked in, and that you put out in this universe that you really feel like, oh, this was something that, you know, I felt like it would work- I think "Andor."

- And it did?

[ominous music] - Has anyone ever made a weapon that wasn't used?

The network's been built.

It's up.

It grows or it dies.

We've waited long enough.

- You realize what you've set in motion?

- It was time for that as well.

- Palpetine won't hesitate now.

- Exactly.

We need it.

We need the fear.

We need them to overreact.

- You can't be serious.

- The empire has been choking us so slowly we're starting not to notice.

The time has come to force their hand.

- People will suffer.

- That's the plan.

- "Star Wars" has so many tones.

- Yeah.

- And so it's not like there's a tone to "Star Wars" like many franchises.

Like, how much is that a part of your discussions with writers at the beginning when you're bringing 'em on?

- Oh, it's a constant discussion.

And I think, you know, the interesting thing is finding the fun and buoyancy in the storytelling.

That's really at its foundation.

That, interestingly enough, is one of the most difficult to find.

It's actually easier to find people who wanna come in and do an edgier, darker kind of story.

To bring somebody in who just wants to make it fun, and frankly more family-oriented, and just laughing, and having a good time, it's tough to find people who really know how to do that and do that well.

- I think Ryan Johnson really did it with "The Last Jedi."

- Ryan Johnson is a perfect example.

You know, when we do this second season, and the fact that I brought Tony in on "Rogue One" when he truly had no interest in coming into "Star Wars," and now a decade later he's written and created over 24 hours of storytelling, that's pretty phenomenal.

And I'm very proud of that.

He can't believe it.

And, yet he literally has said to me, "I think it's my best work."

Yeah.

So that tells you something.

And I think that is the beauty of somebody like Tony Gilroy coming into this space, and actually finding their voice, and finding something to say, and really coming through the process by feeling like it's their best work.

[typewriter ding] [Narrator] You've been watching a conversation with Kathleen Kennedy on "On Story."

"On Story" is part of a growing number of programs in Austin Film Festival's On Story Project that also includes the "On Story" radio program, podcast, book series, and the On Story archive accessible through the Wittliff Collections at Texas State University.

To find out more about "On Story" and Austin Film Festival, visit onstory.tv or austinfilmfestival.com.

♪ ♪ [projector clicking] [typing] [typewriter ding] [projector dies]