[lounge music] ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ [Narrator] "On Story" is brought to you in part by the Alice Kleberg Reynolds Foundation, a Texas family providing innovative funding since 1979.

"On Story" is also brought to you in part by the Bogle Family Vineyards, six generation farmers and third generation winemakers based in Clarksburg, California.

Makers of sustainably grown wines that are a reflection of the their family values since 1968.

[waves] [kids screaming] [wind] [witch cackling] [sirens wail] [gunshots] [dripping] [suspenseful music] [telegraph beeping, typing] [piano gliss] From Austin Film Festival, this is "On Story," a look inside the creative process from today's leading writers, creators and filmmakers.

This week's "On Story," Meg LeFauve.

- I am not the writer.

I am not the manifester.

I am a tool of the muses, the universe, whatever you wanna call it.

And they've got a plan.

And so, if this thing's moving this direction and I can still see that it's good and rich, even if it's not mine, well, that's where the muses want it to go.

[paper crumples] [typing] [carriage returns, ding] [Narrator] This week on "On Story," we're joined by Oscar nominated screenwriter, Meg LeFauve, on a masterclass in crafting emotional storytelling, compelling characters, and intricate worlds.

LeFauve outlines her path to Pixar and her work on the studio's blockbusters "Inside Out" and "Inside Out 2."

[typewriter ding] - I know you started out in college as a, um, studying writing.

But then, you went and worked on the dark side in development.

And I'm just curious like how that happened, but also, did that do something that actually made the experience of taking the risk of getting back to being a writer maybe more successful for you?

- It felt brave to even declare myself as a writer in college.

But then as soon as I got out, I was like, I have nothing to write about.

I'm only 21 years old.

Who do I think I am?

You know, all that voice.

Of course, looking back, I had plenty to write about.

I just wasn't brave enough to even look at it.

So my idea was, I don't know what I wanna do in the movies, I just know I wanna be in the movies.

So my grad school was to go work in an agency because they are the center of the cyclone, especially back in the '90s with CAA and Michael Ovitz and all that.

So I did that and then it, you know, what happens in your life?

You say, well, I'll just do this for a little while.

And then, I'll write.

You guys all know this.

[audience laughing] But that little while takes on the next thing and the next thing.

And it's almost, it's not a brainwashing intentionally, but you get kind of enculturated into whatever job you're doing.

One of the clients of Iseen was Jodi Foster and she was starting a new company.

So I handed my resume in 'cause of course you would, right?

Who doesn't wanna work with Jodi Foster?

And I got the job.

I was with her for 10 years, which in Hollywood terms, that's like, you know, 60, you know, it's like dog years.

I didn't get a watch, but I don't think I could be the writer I am without having done it.

Because number one, Jody was my writing mentor and she's an actress and a director.

So she's teaching from, if you walked-- wanted to pitch her something to act and direct or produce, she would tell you the first, her question is, "What's the big beautiful idea in here?"

One idea, not multiple ideas, one idea.

So she's asking you, "What is emotionally, thematically this about?"

And then, you just start to tell about the characters and you're going deeper and deeper into the emotion of it and her conflict and this and that.

And then she's like, "Okay, okay, okay, I get it."

So she was an actress, so you had to talk to her through character, what is she as an actor or a director gonna be wrestling with emotionally?

So it really taught me to look at storytelling that way.

[typewriter ding] - Then, you managed to work your way into the Pixar side of things, and obviously, their very unique development process.

How was that getting used to that?

- It really was getting to know Pete Docter and what his process is.

But "Inside Out" was crazy because they were in their second screening.

In my very first day, I met eight coordinators and I was like, there's no script.

Like there's no story and there's eight coordinators.

And I'm like, "What are, what?"

And they're like, "I'm in edit, I do this."

"I'm in this, I do that."

"I'm in sets, I do this."

And I'm thinking, "What is happening?

There's no story."

And then we went down from Pete's birthday to the cupcake truck that they brought in.

And I was standing there with Josh Cooley and there were 100 people at this truck and I was like, "Josh, who are all these people?"

And he was like, "This is the crew."

And I was like, "For what?"

[audience laughing] And he was like, "Our movie!"

And I was like, "What are they doing?"

And he's like, "Waiting for you."

[audience laughing] No pressure.

So I mean, but literally, the first three months of working at Pixar, every week I remember, 'cause you would live in a hotel and you would cab in and almost every day in the cab I would be like, "Is this the day I'm getting fired?"

Like you just, we were going so fast and there was so much pressure.

But in the end, again, all you can do under all that pressure, all that expectation, all that need, is just keep coming back to the director, coming back to the story, coming back to what is this about.

Pete-- emotionally, what are we doing?

What is Joy's journey, right?

So when he hit on that he wanted to be about sadness, which I said, "Okay, that could change the world."

And he said, "Never say that again."

'Cause it's too much pressure.

[Joy] It was amazing.

Just Riley and me forever.

[gentle music] [Riley crying] Well, for 33 seconds.

- I'm Sadness.

- Oh, hello, I'm Joy.

So can I just, if you could, I just wanna fix that, thanks.

And that was just the beginning.

- But their first pass at it, Sadness was in the dump and they had to go get her.

And I was like, but if you're and writers do this a lot where you have an emotional thematic, like accept the sadness in your life because it's there to connect you to people.

But then, some part of your brain doesn't wanna deal with that, the true vulnerability of that.

So you put Sadness in the dump and we'll get her later.

But no, you have to do the theme in the second act.

Sadness has to be with Joy and Joy has to be learning from Sadness, and from very vulnerable moments and from being wrong and from making mistakes with Sadness in order for her to learn the lesson.

[somber music] [sighs] [bright music] ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ - So was it a very anxious time period for you?

- Yeah, of course, because I had given up this huge job and connection to people and identity.

I gave up my identity.

And here's the thing, if you ever do decide to do this and jump off the cliff, and I know so many people I've given this advice to and it's happened every single time.

When you say to the universe, okay, I'm gonna go for it.

I have figured out economically how to do it, I'm gonna quit and I'm just gonna be a writer.

Pretty quickly, the universe is gonna offer you a big red, juicy apple to go back.

'Cause it's gonna say, "Are you sure?"

So my big juicy apple was on my answering machine.

Yes, that's how long ago this was, is J.J. Abrams, saying, "I'm starting a film company and I'm gonna interview three people to run it and I would like you to come in and be one of those three to run my company."

I, of course, thought it was a joke.

I thought it was my friend pranking me, [audience chuckling] but it wasn't.

It was J.J. Abrams and I flipped out.

Because, again, it's the universe coming back going, "Do you want your chips back?

Do you wanna be important again?"

And I just wrote like 20-page handwritten, 'cause I have to call him back.

So I just wrote all this stuff about why I was gonna have to turn the job down, but it was just all my doubts coming up.

And I had my friend Felicity read it, one of those core.

And she was like, "You know, Meg, I honestly think all the universe wants you to do is call up J.J. Abrams and say, 'I'm a writer now,' period."

The universe will make you declare it.

Sometimes to the people that are offering the red apple, sometimes to the biggest doubters, the biggest people that don't believe in you.

So I did get that apple and I did call up J.J. Abrams and I did say, "I'm a writer now and I think you're an agent of the universe coming to make me declare it," which he loved.

[audience laughing] [typewriter ding] - So let's go back now and talk about "Inside Out."

So, how did it turn into something where you felt like, "Oh, we've got it!"

- Pete had done all that research.

And on the DVD extras of the first movie is a really amazing video of Pete Docter walking in the woods, talking about all his fears of how this movie isn't working.

And you can watch him come up with the idea that it's Sadness.

'Cause he literally, and this is what Pete's a genius at, he literally will just keep asking why.

Okay, what am I afraid of?

And it's just him asking and he is a genius at this.

He can just drop into all that emotional, vulnerable.

He doesn't have that filter that we all have, you know?

But then, what is Joy doing?

Like, the core memories, I said this in an earlier panel, just came out of sheer desperation.

Like, you guys all think that we're just like these master writers.

And I just came in and said core memories and write or, no!

I'm literally like, "Oh my God!

We are so [bleep] right now.

We don't have, what is she doing?"

I was like, "Okay, okay!

What if it's actual memories that she's carrying?"

Because maybe there's a thing called a core memory.

Like it's your deepest core.

And like Jonas, Jonas our producer, he talks about, you know, Walt Disney all the time because he loves him so much.

He can tell you the day he went when he was five years old and everything that happened, like that's his core memory.

It makes Jonas Jonas.

[audience laughing] That's like one of millions of pitches, you know what I mean?

But that stuck and it felt real and authentic.

- You land on these great characters, right?

These opportunities for great characters.

I mean, talk a little bit about like how you, for Anger, you know, or they're all obviously so distinctly different and you don't have casting the same way.

- When I came in, they did have Anger, Fear, I don't know if Disgust was cast.

But Anger and Fear were cast and there was a Joy cast who actually got replaced.

And we made a big push to talk about Amy Poehler.

Because my experience of Amy Poehler as a comedian is she really cares about your Joy and your Joy, and "Are you happy?

Oh my gosh, we could all be happy together!"

[bright music] ♪ ♪ [Joy] And that's it!

We love our girl.

Oh, she's got great friends and a great house.

Things couldn't be better.

- I was lucky that I did have some of them cast.

So you're using their personalities and you can do that as a writer, cast your movie in your head.

It can help, it can help you bring in some of that personality quirk and how that actor would approach it.

[typewriter ding] - When you're building these out, I mean, there's such visual films obviously.

How much of that is part of creating things that are feeding that animation side of it from their artistic side?

- Well, sometimes, you have character design going on at the same time.

Like it was fun to have anxieties, multiple character designs coming in and see what the director's leaning towards.

And when you see this kind of little thing with a big smile and all that hair, you're kind of like, "Okay, I'm starting.

There she is!"

So it does help you to have them drawing.

And you have storyboard artists coming in pretty soon.

I think it was Kelsey and I working on "Inside Out 2" for maybe a couple of months before.

So storyboard artists start coming in to draw what does it feel like to be a teenage girl.

And just idea rivers going by.

Kelsey's an artist.

So he's drawing things that he saw the bay, the idea bay where the fishermen went to fish for ideas.

And you know, it was really fun to see his imagination going.

But my job is, those are all great ideas, but what's the story?

Sometimes, it really does help and sometimes it works against you.

Like I'll never forget "Inside Out 1," Pete came in and he goes, "Well, we were just over in production design," and the world-building that they're doing, they're drawing different lands.

And he's like, "John moved long-term memory."

I'm like, "What do you mean?"

And he goes, "Yeah, John doesn't want long-term memory at the end, at the edge of the mind."

He think she should be right in the center, that your long-term memory would be right at the center.

And I'm like, "Pete, it's a road movie, you can't move.

She was going to long-term memory at the end of the movie.

Now she would have to go at the beginning of the movie."

And they were like, "It's moved."

- Oh Sadness, we don't have time for this.

Well, we'll just have to go around.

Take the scenic route!

[Sadness] Wait, Joy, you could get lost in there!

- Think positive!

[Sadness] Okay, I'm positive you will get lost in there.

That's long-term memory an endless warren of corridors and shelves.

I read about it in the manuals.

- The manuals?

The manuals!

You read the manuals!

- Yeah.

- So, you know the way back to headquarters?

- I, I guess.

- Ooooh, you are my map.

- It ended up being great for the story.

Sometimes, all those constraints, if you really think about it, they make you create a better story.

- So what is that process like though you're working with all these people and there's constant ideas flying from other people not you.

- So sometimes, as a writer, you really have to pause and just try to get back up to a 30,000-foot view to see, is this holding together now?

Because these sequences can start shifting and moving around.

So imagine that, like the sequences are moving, and then you have three layers.

It's three-dimensional chess 'cause you have Riley's storyline, you have Joy's storyline as the main character, and then you have Anxiety's storyline, and then you have a half little storyline of Sadness on her own.

They all have to be arcing.

They all have to have relationships.

They all have to be transforming, changing, moving, evolving.

And then, they all have to speak to each other.

So if Joy does something in her line, it has to affect Riley and it has to affect Anxiety.

It's pft.

[audience chuckling] - Well, so were there some moments in there that you felt were like, or that you wrote in there that were wholly your own?

- I mean, yeah, because Kelsey and I are developing the story.

So we have really laid down all the groundwork.

It's not that they're not yours, it's more like people are coming into plus, do you know what I'm saying?

Because you're going so fast in your writing and somebody has an idea about a better joke or they came in with the idea.

One of the great storyboard artists came in with the idea of it was just a joke.

Like, "What about a Sarcasm?"

And you're like, "Oh my gosh!

That's such a great idea."

- But I mean, you don't still like "Get Up and Glow!

", do you?

- Okay, don't panic, what do we do?

If we don't like their music, we got nothing [Ennui groans] to offer these girls.

We'll be outed as the imposter.

- Pardon, excuse moi.

I've been waiting my whole life for this very moment.

- Oh yeah, I love "Get Up and Glow!"

[echoes] Love "Get Up and Glow!"

[echoes] Love "Get Up and Glow!"

- It has to apply to Riley.

Why is Riley being sarcastic?

Why does that affect her relationship with somebody?

What does that do to Joy?

What does Joy think about it?

What does Anxiety think about it?

So you can throw a lot of ideas.

But if it doesn't fit into the story and I have to write it, right?

I have to actually write the sarcasm and they might punch up the jokes.

But you're very much, it's like a swirl of ideas, which is great but also overwhelming.

Because at some point, you have to start picking and putting stakes in the ground.

And okay, this is what we're gonna write.

- So in "2," when you decided you'd do this all over again, what was the... was it a different approach you were taking to that?

I mean, it feels to me darker.

And obviously, that's a darker period of one's life.

So in the approach for that, because, I mean, there's definitely tear moments in there but how was that team also looking at that?

- Kelsey pitched to get this movie started.

I wanna do a movie about Anxiety taking over Riley and what Joy's response to that is going to be.

So it's already sitting there in that concept.

And so they've said yes to that.

We did go a little bit darker with Shame being the ultimate antagonist.

[typewriter ding] - One of the things I thought was really interesting was those girl relationships in there and how there were moments where I thought y'all were gonna go into the mean girl thing and you didn't, which I thought was a great choice.

- It would've been very easy to do mean girls.

I mean, I had mean girls in my life and you can still have mean girls in your life no matter what age you are.

But it did feel a little dated to do mean girls.

And it felt more interesting to have this girl that you so admire and she's nice.

It's even harder in a way because she's nice to you.

So now you really want to impress her.

You really want her to see you and acknowledge you.

You know, if she's a mean girl, you don't.

So it's also getting into Riley's emotional point of view on that person.

- Talking about us?

- Yeah, there's no way coach is putting her on the team if she can't get it together.

- Uh, okay Dani.

Like you had it all together when you were a freshman?

- Ugh!

I wasn't that immature.

- Dani, you stuck straws up your nose.

- Oh, come on, guys!

- Ugh.

[Embarrassment grunts] - Oh, I got you big guy.

- Oh, I always wanted people to talk about us.

But not like this!

- You don't ever want the audience to think, "Oh, she's a mean girl but Riley is adoring her."

Because now you've bifurcated the audience out of what Riley's experiencing.

Both Riley and Joy think that, and Anxiety, all three of them think she's the penultimate thing.

There are girls around her that push, but they're not pushing out of meanness.

They're pushing out of toughness or that girl sucks or like they're not doing that at Riley.

So we did a lot of research.

We had a whole thing called the Riley Crew, which was girls from 13 to 16.

They saw every screening and gave us notes, so that we made sure it was authentic to the girls of today.

- So the other piece that I just loved about "2" was the new cohorts turning against Anxiety, and you know, following Joy.

- Well, it was easy in that we knew very early that Sadness and Embarrassment were gonna be buddies.

And that he's following Anxiety 'cause he's been with her in the waiting room so long that he thinks he needs to.

But to watch him start to slowly turn towards Sadness, it used to be a much longer part of the movie.

And we knew that your anxiety can get so big and out of control that even other parts of you are like, "Wait a minute.

Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop," right?

Because everybody is there for Riley, their number one concern, their number one goal, their number one love is Riley.

So they can believe Anxiety is the best for Riley.

Or they can have their own arc of realizing, "Oh, maybe she's not."

[typewriter ding] There comes a point where I've written my draft.

This is the movie I would animate.

But you know, it's animation and animation is animation, it's the director's medium.

And then, my job is to say, "Okay, let's do your version."

So you're right back in that place as a writer because as long as there's a director, even if it's your baby and you spec'd it and you're gonna hand it to a director and they're gonna change it to make it their own.

And you're either gonna stay on the writer doing that or you're gonna go off, and that's just part of being a writer.

It's a mourning process all the time, right?

Because things are getting cut, discarded, move on, is, this is bigger than me.

It's not your story.

It is the universe's story.

That's why it's art.

It's coming through you.

So that's how I handle those emotional times, which is like, that wouldn't have been my choice, but it's still a good choice.

Now, if they're making a choice that I think kills the thing, I'm gonna lay across it like a mother and be like, "Over my dead body," [audience chuckling] I am, because now the muses are like, you better go lay on that thing and not let them kill that.

'Cause I feel it so strongly, like I did that in "Inside Out 1" with the scene where Riley's mom says to her, "Thanks for being our happy girl."

And there was a real concern that mom would be unlikable and I just, it was the hill I was gonna die on because it's why Joy is doing what she's doing.

It's the foundation pivot pin of the whole movie emotionally.

- I guess all I really wanna say is thank you, you know?

Through all this confusion, you've stayed, well, you've stayed our happy girl.

Your dad's under a lot of pressure.

But if you and I can keep smiling, it would be a big help.

We can do that for him, right?

- Whoa.

Well.

[chiming] - Yeah, sure.

- What did we do to deserve you?

[kiss smack] - That whole thing of "Thanks for being our happy girl," to "You want me to be happy but I'm not," I mean, that's me at 11 years old.

And part of the reason I got there emotionally is because we were going so fast.

Sometimes if you have too much time, the brain will find all kinds of reasons to not allow you to bring that up.

And if you give yourself a very short deadline, and I mean a deadline like I'm handing it to my five friends on the 21st, no matter in what shape it's in, the brain doesn't have time to stop it.

And so it just kind of burped up, right?

It was weird and I didn't even realize it was me until I was in the screening internally.

And I was like, "Oh my God!"

[audience laughing] I just felt so naked.

I was like, "Oh my God, that's me.

Oh my God!"

And then, in "Inside Out 2", I just, I've been working with Anxiety inside of myself for a long time, that those projections that she's doing, and I thought, yes, of course, she has taken over the imagination.

But I didn't want my anxiety to stop me from what I wanted to experience in the world.

So I would just, if I was going into pitch or something and she would just be raging and telling me not to get out of the car, I would just say, "Okay, my Anxiety, first of all, thank you.

I know you're trying to help me."

Because you can't cut a piece of yourself out.

She is there to help you.

"But I'm not gonna die.

I know you think I'm gonna die if I pitch and fail, but I'm not."

So I would just imagine a little red chair and I'd say, "Just have a seat.

Just sit down and watch."

And she would, it would calm.

She's never going completely away and she doesn't necessarily believe you that you're not gonna die, but you don't die.

And the more you ask her to watch, the more she starts trusting your impulse to ask her to step aside.

Also giving her a job is a good idea.

So I knew that's where I wanted, we wanted the end of the film to be, like, what do you do with your anxiety?

Because it has really helped me do that.

[typewriter ding] [Narrator] You've been watching a conversation with Meg LeFauve on "On Story."

"On Story" is part of a growing number of programs in Austin Film Festival's On Story Project that also includes the "On Story" radio program, podcast, book series, and the On Story archive accessible through the Wittliff Collections at Texas State University.

To find out more about "On Story" and Austin Film Festival, visit onstory.tv or austinfilmfestival.com.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ [projector clicking] [typing] [typewriter ding] [projector dies]