- Coming up on "Austin InSight," a very special edition of our show: an in-depth conversation with country music star, Charley Crockett.

"Austin InSight" starts now.

- [Announcer] Support for "Austin InSight" comes from Sally & James Gavin, and also from Daniel L. Skret.

(bright orchestral upbeat music) (bright orchestral upbeat music continues) - Hi there, and thanks for joining us, I'm Laura Laughead.

"The New York Times" has proclaimed him the coolest cat in country, and he lives here in Austin.

He's so cool, in fact, that one of his songs has just been heard about 235,000 miles from here: in space.

His song, "Lonesome Drifter," was one of the wake up songs for NASA's Artemis II Moon Mission crew.

♪ I'm just a lonesome drifter on the only highway ♪ (upbeat country music) - That's kind of the perfect song for outer space.

Charley Crockett, born in San Benito in the Rio Grande Valley, says, he's a descendant of Davy Crockett.

And like his reported ancestor who fought and died at the Battle of the Alamo, Charley Crockett has packed a lot of living in his 42 years; from busking on New York City subways, to now some Grammy nominations.

During South by Southwest, he promoted his new album, the "Age of the Ram," and unveiled a new documentary film called "A Cowboy in London."

During the festival, we sat down with Crockett.

♪ I'm a 10 dollar cowboy ♪ ♪ Baby, that's a fact ♪ - This past South by Southwest, you may have seen this poster all over town, on poles, on buildings, even on the ground; it's Texas's own Charley Crockett.

The country music star is debuting a new album called the "Age of the Ram," and also premiering a new documentary film called "A Cowboy in London," it's an intimate, raw portrayal of Crockett behind the scenes as he performs three sold out nights in London; so intimate, in fact, much of it was shot by his wife on a camcorder.

We spoke with Crockett about the film, about why country music is so beloved, even across the pond, and about his journey to being a 20 year overnight success.

- I backed into it, you know, it as a career of last resort.

The situation around me was so bleak, the safest thing to do, in my mind, was to just walk out of town with a backpack and a guitar.

- Something that you said at the beginning of the documentary really stood out, that kind of epitomized the theme in a sense that country music is for people looking for something genuine, for authenticity, perhaps.

So what does that mean to you, and what is it about country music that feels so authentic that it can even resonate in a place like London?

- Well, you know, genres can be difficult for an artist just because, you know... And I'm proud of country music, but that doesn't necessarily mean an artist, you know, wants to get trapped by its conventions.

And so, you know, when you talk about being in London, Texas means something, and it means something everywhere in the world, for better or worse.

It's a place that most anyone on Earth has heard of.

So, you know, I think one thing with country music in the United States is that region matters, it has something to do with it.

The other thing is, is that there's a rural feeling maybe associated with country music, that's kind of something you can identify, but that's kind of like the blues, you know, it's about rural people, and more often than not, it's about rural folks maybe having to go to the big city to tell their story under electric lights.

And storytelling is not exclusive to the idea of country music, per se, but it's central, I think, to the idea of country music is storytelling, and more often than not, personal storytelling.

- And I've heard it's said by an artist that, interestingly, the more personal a story is, then therefore the more universal the appeal.

And it is interesting that according to The UK Country Music Association, that country music is the fastest growing music genre right now.

And I especially loved when in the documentary, you stepped out in front of these crowds, and they were all chanting "Charley" in a very distinctive British accent, (Charley chuckles) and then they made that sort of sea shanty of sorts when they were singing.

(Charley chuckles) - [Audience Member] Charley, play "Stolen Jewels!"

- You gotta throw some cash up on this stage, hoss, American dollars.

(audience chuckling) Pounds just won't get it done.

- Yeah!

(audience chuckling) - And as I mentioned, like the theme of authenticity is also underscored in a sense by the documentary's production, the rawness, the verite style, the minimal editing, and the intimate moments too, like showing your nerves before a show.

And something really interesting to me was how much of the film was shot on a camcorder by your wife, Taylor Grace, that's really special and very different from a lot of the polished, highly-stylized music documentaries we see these days.

What was the thinking behind that?

- Well, part of the reason that this film maybe feels so intimate, or I guess the word would be like verite, you know, almost voyeuristic in a way, is because Jared's one of these filmmakers who has a talent for, you know, turning into a fly on the wall, you know, he kind of can blend into the furniture.

And then he had an old camcorder, it was like his dad's camcorder that he used to mess around with in Fort Worth when he was a kid, Burleson, Texas.

And he brought it because he knew he was gonna be on his own, and he had this idea to hand it to my wife, Taylor, and just said, "Hey, you know, if you see anything you wanna film, you know, I think it would be great."

And he didn't have any expectations, or know whether she'd do anything with it or not, but Taylor's really, really talented in anything she applies herself to, from songwriting, singing, acting, photography, anything.

And I think part of what that is, is, you know, the intimate comfort that we have as husband and wife and confidants, there's something there, you know, that's what I was telling her in the film, I just saw it again today kind of reluctantly, it is hard for me to watch that film, just looking at myself.

But I said something to the effect of, "I always sing it better back here with you," you know?

And that really is true.

- That's so romantic.

- I sure wish all my records sounded like they do in those moments when she's the one rolling the tape.

(chuckles) - There is definitely, as a viewer, a softness to you in the moments that are shot by her, someone you know and you love, as opposed to, you know, this fly on the wall crew, even if it is still very natural, there is definitely like a nuance of softness there.

You know, you mentioned it's hard for you to watch.

Why is it hard for you to watch this film?

- Well... So like I say, I met Jared because he wanted me to play a lead role, you know, in a kind of scenario, fictional film.

And I liked the idea of it, I really did, but I've kind of got this idea that if and when I go to do that, I very much come up in Central Texas, in the culture that put us on the map, which there's a lot of people, all on these walls, that are a part of that, but maybe nobody more than Willie Nelson.

And I can think of four films of his particularly that have had a big impact on me, and that would be "Honeysuckle Rose," "Red Headed Stranger," "Barbarosa."

And maybe the best one in a way is this film that's maybe the least known, it's called "Songwriter" from 1984, which is this thinly veiled kind of like a... It's like a screwball comedy on the surface, but if you know what you're looking at, it's absolutely a critique and maybe an expose on the entertainment business.

- Say hello to the president of Lone Star Music, Mr.

Blackie Buck.

♪ But the show goes on ♪ - We could.

- Jared wanted to follow me around and document my career anyway, and he thought that London, the setup being... I hadn't played solo in quite some time, and I was doing a TV show that they filmed there, "Jools Holland," which was a career goal of mine, you know?

And there was a lot of press and some in-store set up around it.

And he said, "Let me come over there with you, you know, just so we have it.

Let's document it."

And when we were leaving, and he was looking back at the tape and sending me some scenes, I think we both knew that we had captured something that was very revealing about, you know, what it really takes kind of on the scenic route that I've taken.

And when I first saw it, I remember Taylor and I were in a hotel room in New York City, I was actually playing a series of dates there in Manhattan, and he sent us a cut and we watched it right before bed.

And I could barely sleep that night, and was really kind of terrified of the film.

And I just think that oftentimes music documentaries can really just be kind of an advertising piece, you know, kind of PR campaign.

And I think this was something that is maybe intimidated by it, as I am, I thought this is, you know... "Let's lay it out there because there's a lot of debate out there about my background and how I got here."

And, for better or worse, I think it helps put a lot of that on the map.

- And now let's talk about your background.

You know, you're right, this is a side of the music business we've, for the most part, never seen and may never get to see.

And people have this misconception of your quote-unquote "sudden rise to fame," but you've been described as a 20 year overnight success.

But you also said in the doc that it might've been unfortunate if you had success early.

Can you elaborate on that and how your slow burn to use your word "scenic journey" in your career has shaped you as an artist?

- Yeah.

Well, I've got a line in a song that, you know, talking about, you know, Nashville, they love to lead you by the hand, you know, and they particularly like it when you don't understand.

The first time I ever got any kind of deal in the music business, we were performing on subway cars as young, desperate men, we weren't a band or anything, we were just people living hand and mouth on the street in our 20s, you know, panhandling on public transit.

And we were doing it so often throughout, you know, eight, 10 hours a day, I guess we were destined at some point to gain the attention of industry people.

And they were really interested in us because, you know, we were winning over diverse subway cars of hard to reach New Yorkers.

- Unfazed by anything in New York.

- And we were breaking through, and they saw that, and I remember describing us specifically you know, as believable as the way that the industry people were describing, you know, us as young men, as the believability that they seemed to be most interested in, and strangely, they didn't have... This was, you know, about 15 years ago now, so it was before it really became the way that it is now with social media, with things like TikTok and all of that, and the kind of instantaneous viral moments that can lend towards, you know, authenticity usually being an example of putting a camera on somebody maybe considered to be less experienced.

And so, it was right before at least this section of the machine of the industry maybe realized what they had.

Like, what we were doing on the street was probably the most marketable thing that they had, but that was the one thing they didn't see.

What they saw was believability and a pop music kind of model that they were trying to kind of force it into.

And another word that I remember them describing at the time when they saw that I was gonna be maybe not so easy to corral was moldability, you know?

And I don't regret any of that, actually; in a way, all these years later, it's the best thing that happened to me, because if you don't know what it is you're selling, you really run the risk of people deciding that for you, you know what I mean?

- 100%.

And it is interesting this notion of authenticity as currency, which is kind of the antithesis of authenticity.

- Yeah, there is, yeah, it sure is.

- And, you know, in the music business, you are expected to pay your dues to be successful, right?

But, you know, after your experiences, like you talked about, you know, your work performing on the streets, and your days in New York and around the world, do you think you may have overpaid your dues in a sense?

- Hmm.

No two paths are the same or alike.

And so, I'm not saying that because I've paid, supposedly paid all these dues that I'm more deserving of anything, and I don't want anybody to think that.

I just think that to what is to... When you say that, and it's funny 'cause when you're dealing with these modern major label, you know, industry folks, that's exactly what they're saying, you know, "Authenticity's hot," you know, "It's all about how authentic you are."

And what a lot of that can do is that it can drown out another kind of authenticity which comes from perseverance, you know?

And, you know, my street background, my itinerant background by today's standards is pretty rare.

But there was a time when the industry largely looked to itinerant-type performers performing on street corners in towns all around America as a kind of go-to place to find, you know, motivated, you know, hardworking talent.

An example was, I was in Augusta, Georgia, just the other night, playing at an auditorium there, and the town is famous for the birthplace of James Brown.

And you can ride down the main drag there and see where he started tap dancing on the street as young as I think maybe five or six.

- Wow.

- And then he would go on to revolutionize American music, you know, with his form of it.

And that's true of country music too, is Hank Williams Sr., the rugged individual, kind of archetype, that all modern country music kind of leads back to, was a young street performer from, you know, playing on the streets of Montgomery, Alabama, shining shoes and selling peanuts, and learning how to play guitar from older itinerant street players, you know?

- And that's also kind of part of the lore here in Austin, you know, the so-called live music capital of the world.

And it is really special to be a part of a city that values, or at least we hope continues to value music and performing in this way.

And during all of this, whether it's the music industry or the current political landscape, you are outspoken, and you sometimes as a result, experience backlash.

But that's a choice that you make.

Why is that?

- I've always been the way that I am right now; the difference is, is that there's a lot more people aware of me than there were before.

I'm not more outspoken than I was.

In fact, you know, you could dig up maybe things that I said when I was much a younger man, and, you know, who knows, they might string me up for it.

(Laura chuckles) But when it comes to backlash and being outspoken and all that, silence is as much of a political statement as having a stance, you know?

I really do think that.

And there's a lot of pressure to conform the more you get out there in front of the public.

And what I don't ever wanna be doing is I don't want to censor myself for what I believe to be right, you know, out of fear, you know, of punishment, or thinking, you know, only of the money, you know?

You start putting the money first then, you know, it's kind of like, I would always say it's like once you get caught up in a scene, it's not about the music anymore, you know?

And if you start thinking about the money more than the art, well, that's gonna show, you know?

- Yeah, that's the Faustian bargain right there.

- The what?

- The Faustian bargain, the Devil's bargain.

- Ah, yeah.

- Yeah.

(Charley chuckles) It's, like, which, you know, is as you chase more of the dollar signs, you lose what brought you to the dollar signs in the first place, what people liked about you, and made you popular in the first place.

And something interesting in the documentary was, you know, you said you made your goals performing at the Houston Rodeo, which was really exciting for us Houstonians, and the "Jools Holland Show."

You've met these goals, what's next for you on your bucket list?

- You know, there... Like, something that's just kind of I've been thinking about recently is... I've got a show, you know, I'm doing Stubb's tonight, and I've played indoors there, and Lord knows much barbecue I've eaten at that restaurant, and I used to busk outside of it when I was younger a little bit.

This is my first time playing like outside Amphitheater there.

And then after the show, the bus is riding up to Clovis, New Mexico, and there's this old studio there that I'd been trying to get into for years, it's been closed down where they only do... It's kind of like a tourism museum.

And it was the first place that Waylon Jennings ever recorded, and it was where the early Buddy Holly recordings came from with a Recording Engineer/Producer named Norman Petty.

And I'm doing those recordings with my friend, Shooter, Waylon Jennings' son, and there's all of this debate and question of the identity of what they call kind of, you know, outlaw as a sub-genre or a genre.

And it's hard to put your finger on it, but I remember Shooter telling me that later in his dad's life, in Waylon Jennings' life, his greatest comfort was his David and Goliath victory kind of over the Nashville recording business if only for a few years in that key era that kind of defined what the broader business came to kind of call, market, identify as outlaw.

And there's a lot of ideas of what outlaw is, it's an attitude, there's a sound, there's an identity to it.

And most of that is not... In my opinion, none of that really matters.

What it's about, and to me, is that it's holding on to what you've got, you know, when you're dealing with, like you said, Goliath, and there's not just... A lot of people are fighting great battles and great struggles against insurmountable odds, but, you know, I always felt that circumstances put me on street corners and playing on street corners, I developed in a certain way and caught the attention of the business, and kind of went right up into the middle of it.

And I think that it's always been like this, but there's so much happening in social media and, you know, very divisive politics and a lot of money influencing and trying to get your attention, that like 20 years from now, we'll know what holds up and what doesn't, you know?

And I try to keep that in mind because those were the only goals I had.

When I was a kid in South Texas, we had the Rio Grande Valley stock show there in Mercedes, I never thought I'd even play that, you know, and I damn sure didn't think I'd play the Houston Rodeo, you know, like Selena, or Beyonce, or Waylon, or Elvis, or any of 'em, and, you know, I never thought I'd get on a TV show in London.

But the way that I got there was, by, you know, for better or worse, you know, doing it my way, and it's just that's all I can do, you know?

It's a pretty short ride, and, you know, I mean, I'm trying to stay sticky and stay up there on the bronco.

(chuckles) - Well, hey, if you keep doing it your way, people will keep following.

Well, congratulations on the film.

"A Cowboy in London" has its Texas premiere today, March 18th at South by Southwest.

Charley Crockett, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your story.

- Pleasure belongs to me.

(bright orchestral upbeat music) - Before and after the interview, Charley and his team could not have been kinder and more accommodating, and we love to see a Texan making it in music on their own terms.

It's also kind of fitting to have a Crockett in this show because this week, the week of April 21st, actually marks 190 years since the Battle of San Jacinto: the 18-minute victory that secured Texas' independence.

And that's our show.

You can rewatch and share this interview on the Austin PBS YouTube channel.

You can find full episodes of "Austin InSight" in the PBS app anytime for free.

Thanks again for watching, we'll see you next time.

♪ Feeling it rising ♪ ♪ Rising on you ♪ ♪ Baby, you're not the only one ♪ ♪ Feeling it rising ♪ ♪ Steady rising up, rising on you ♪ I feel it too now.

(groovy country guitar music) (groovy country guitar music continues) (groovy country guitar music continues) (groovy country guitar music continues) - [Announcer] Support for "Austin InSight" comes from Sally & James Gavin and also from Daniel L. Skret.

(bright instrumental music)