♪ THEME MUSIC ♪ >>HELLO, AND WELCOME TO GLOBAL PERSPECTIVES.

I'M KATIE CORONADO.

DAVID DUMKE IS ON ASSIGNMENT.

TODAY WE HAVE A VERY SPECIAL GUEST WITH US.

HE'S A PULITZER PRIZE WINNER WHO HAS WRITTEN NUMEROUS BOOKS ON MANY INTERNATIONAL TOPICS, AND HE'S HERE WITH US TODAY TO TALK ABOUT HIS MOST RECENT BOOK CALLED GIVE ME LIBERTY.

DAVID HOFFMAN, WELCOME.

>>OH, THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>>DAVID, GIVE US A LITTLE BACKGROUND ON YOUR CAREER AND WHAT YOUR BOOKS HAVE BEEN ABOUT.

>>I'VE BEEN A JOURNALIST AT THE WASHINGTON POST FOR 40 YEARS THIS SUMMER.

I COVERED A WHITE HOUSE AND I WAS ALSO THE MOSCOW BUREAU CHIEF, AMONG OTHER THINGS.

AND WHEN I WAS IN RUSSIA, I WROTE THREE BOOKS ABOUT THE COLD WAR.

BUT ONE THING THAT ALWAYS INTRIGUED ME WAS I HAD VISITED THIS CABIN IN THE WOODS WHERE ANDREI SAKHAROV, THE FAMOUS NUCLEAR PHYSICIST, HAD DECIDED TO SPEAK OUT AGAINST SOVIET REPRESSION, AGAINST WHAT THE SOVIET UNION HAD BECOME.

AND I ALWAYS WONDERED WHAT PROMPTED SAKHAROV TO SIT IN THAT LITTLE CABIN IN THE WOODS AND WRITE THAT, ESPECIALLY BECAUSE THE THINGS HE WROTE ABOUT WERE NO SECRET.

I MEAN, MILLIONS OF SOVIET CITIZENS REALIZED THAT THEY WERE LIVING THROUGH A PERIOD OF STAGNATION, THAT THEY DIDN'T HAVE RIGHTS, THAT THEY WERE LIVING ESSENTIALLY IN A DICTATORSHIP.

SO WHAT CAUSED THIS ONE PERSON WHO WAS IN THIS SOVIET ELITE TO RISK IT ALL?

AND WHAT GAVE HIM THE INSPIRATION AND THE COURAGE TO STAND UP AND DO THAT?

>>FIRST OF ALL, AS A JOURNALIST, IT'S VERY COURAGEOUS OF YOU TO WRITE THIS STORY.

AND I WANT TO KNOW WHAT INSPIRED YOU THEN TO WRITE ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR GENTLEMAN OSWALDO PAYA?

>>SO PAYA WAS, IF YOU MET HIM ON THE STREETS OF HAVANA, A VERY SOFT SPOKEN FELLOW.

HE DIDN'T COME ACROSS PERSONALLY LIKE A FIREBRAND.

HE WAS A LITTLE BIT MORE LIKE A TEACHER.

HE HAD A TWINKLE IN HIS EYES.

HE WAS NOT A PERSON THAT YOU WOULD THINK WOULD BE STANDING ON THE RAMPARTS, YET HE HAD A BURNING DESIRE TO CHANGE CUBA.

HIS DAY JOB WAS TO FIX MEDICAL EQUIPMENT IN HOSPITALS.

HE WAS GOOD AT IT.

HE LIKED THE ENGINEERING.

BUT AT NIGHT AND ON WEEKENDS, HE SPENT MOST OF HIS LIFE THINKING ABOUT HOW CUBA COULD BECOME A FREE COUNTRY, AND HOW THE PEOPLE OF CUBA COULD BECOME FREE.

>>WHAT MADE HIM A DIFFERENT KIND OF ACTIVIST?

BECAUSE WE KNOW THERE ARE STORIES OF ACTIVISTS, OF DISSIDENTS, WHO HAVE TRIED THINGS LIKE THIS AND WHO HAVE HISTORY, IN CUBA AND IN OTHER COUNTRIES.

WHY DID YOU CHOOSE HIS STORY?

AND WHAT MADE HIM BE ABLE TO REACH SUCCESS, IF YOU WILL, IN CUBA?

>>YOU KNOW, THIS IS A REALLY INTERESTING STORY.

IF YOU JUST HAVE A SECOND, OSWALDO PAYA WAS BORN IN 1952.

HE SPENT HIS ENTIRE LIFE IN DICTATORSHIP AND THAT LIVED EXPERIENCE OF WHAT IT WAS LIKE SHAPED HIM.

I OFTENTIMES THINK IT WAS SORT OF THE DUST ON HIS SHOES THAT MADE HIM DIFFERENT, BECAUSE HE WALKED THE WALK AND TALKED THE TALK ABOUT HOW TO BRING ABOUT CHANGE.

HE DIDN'T JUST ISSUE PRESS RELEASES.

HE DIDN'T ESCAPE TO FLORIDA.

HE DEVOTED HIS LIFE TO THE WORK OF THE STREETS.

AND WHEN HE WAS YOUNG, HE COULD SEE, HE CAME FROM A CATHOLIC FAMILY.

THEY WORSHIPED AT THE SAME PARISH WHERE THE FAMILY HAD BEEN GOING FOR FOUR GENERATIONS.

HE COULD SEE THAT THEY WERE PERSECUTED FOR BEING CATHOLICS.

PEOPLE THREW STONES AT THEM ON THE WAY TO MASS.

THEY THREW ROTTEN EGGS AT THE DOORS OF THE CHURCH.

AND YET AS HE GREW UP AS A TEENAGER, HE DISCOVERED IN THE CHURCH KIND OF A OASIS OF FREEDOM, PARISH PRIEST, FATHER ALFREDO PETIT, WHO'S WELL KNOWN TO CUBANS, AT THE TIME HE ENCOURAGED OSWALDO PAYA AND THE OTHER YOUTH IN THE CHURCH TO THINK OF THE CHURCH AS A TEMPLE OF LIBERTY, AS A PLACE WHERE THEY COULD EXPRESS THEMSELVES FREELY, TO BE OPEN IN THE CHURCH.

AND OSWALDO HELD THAT BELIEF FOR A LONG TIME.

AS A YOUNG MAN, HE SAW HIS FATHER'S BUSINESS WAS CONFISCATED WHEN HE WAS 13 YEARS OLD.

HE WAS SENT TO CASTRO'S FORCED LABOR CAMPS DURING THE PERIOD OF HIS MILITARY SERVICE.

HE WAS FORCED OUT OF THE UNIVERSITY OF HAVANA BECAUSE OF HIS VIEWS.

SO HE HAD PERSONALLY EXPERIENCED A LOT OF THIS KIND OF PERSECUTION AND REPRESSION.

HE HAD SEEN IT ALL AROUND HIM, AND HIS CATHOLIC FAITH TOLD HIM NOT TO GIVE UP AND TO KEEP TRYING.

AND I THINK BY THE TIME HE WAS A YOUNG MAN, AND EVENTUALLY HE WAS TEACHING PHYSICS IN HIGH SCHOOLS, HE WANTED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

SO HIS VERY FIRST THING HE TRIED WAS TO SEE IF HE COULD USE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AS A WAY TO BRING ABOUT THIS FREEDOM THAT HE LONGED FOR.

>>THAT BRINGS US TO THE VALUES THAT THE CATHOLIC RELIGION INSTILLS, AND ESPECIALLY IN THE CUBAN CULTURE, THAT IT INVOLVES LOVE AND MAKING SURE THAT IT INCLUDES, WELL FROM HIS PERSPECTIVE, FROM WHAT I READ, HE WANTED TO INCLUDE THE GOVERNMENT.

HE WANTED TO INCLUDE PERSPECTIVES.

AND HE KNEW THAT THERE WAS SOMETHING WRONG WITH THE WAY THAT PEOPLE WERE BEING TREATED.

AND AS YOU MENTIONED, HE WAS VERY YOUNG.

I BELIEVE THAT YOU WROTE THAT HE WAS SEVEN YEARS OLD WHEN CASTRO CAME INTO POWER.

IS THAT RIGHT?

>>THAT'S RIGHT.

>>SO WHAT DO YOU THINK GAVE HIM THAT COURAGE, OTHER THAN SEEING THAT HIS FATHER'S BUSINESS WAS TAKEN AND EVERYTHING ELSE THAT WAS GOING ON AROUND HIM TO SAY, HEY, YOU KNOW, FOLLOW ME AND NOT BE AFRAID, BECAUSE THINGS WERE HAPPENING, AND DO STILL HAPPEN, WHEN PEOPLE SPEAK OUT IN CUBA?

>>YOU KNOW, THERE WAS ESSENTIALLY AN EXPERIMENT THAT HE HAD.

AS A YOUNG MAN AFTER HE LEFT THE UNIVERSITY WHEN HE WAS TEACHING, HE DECIDED TO VOLUNTEER.

HE WAS PART OF THE LAITY IN HIS CHURCH, AND HE DECIDED TO VOLUNTEER TO BE AN ASSISTANT TO THE ARCHBISHOP OF HAVANA, JAIME ORTEGA.

AND THIS WAS A REALLY INTERESTING THING.

ORTEGA OFTEN TOOK YOUNG MEN LIKE OSWALDO, WHO WERE VERY DEVOTED TO THE CHURCH IN THE LAITY, AND HE GAVE THEM ASSIGNMENTS.

AND IN OSWALDO'S CASE, HE SPENT 1984 HELPING JAIME ORTEGA PREPARE FOR A MAJOR REEXAMINATION OF THE CHURCH AND ITS LIFE IN CUBA.

THIS REEXAMINATION INVOLVED MEETINGS AROUND THE ISLAND, IT INVOLVED SORT OF TRYING TO COME TO GRIPS WITH THIS PERSECUTION THAT MANY CATHOLICS HAD FELT.

PEOPLE FORGET, BUT AT THE TIME CHRISTIANS WERE MARGINALIZED IN CUBA.

THEY FELT SORT OF PUSHED INTO A CORNER.

THEY DIDN'T GET THE BEST JOBS.

THEY WERE OFTEN SINGLED OUT FOR BAD TREATMENT.

AND I THINK AS OSWALDO PICKED UP ON THIS, ESPECIALLY AT THIS POINT WHEN THE CHURCH WAS REALLY BEGINNING TO THINK, WHAT SHOULD WE DO?

AND HOW SHOULD WE BEHAVE A RELATIONSHIP TO CASTRO AND THE DICTATORSHIP?

AND HE HAD SOME HOPE, SOME HOPE INSIDE OF HIM AS A YOUNG MAN THAT MAYBE THE CHURCH WOULD DECIDE TO CONFRONT THIS PERSECUTION.

IN 1985, HIS GIRLFRIEND, SOON TO BE HIS WIFE, OFELIA AND HE TOGETHER WROTE A STATEMENT OF HOW THEY FELT ABOUT THIS, SUMMONING THE CHURCH TO REACH ITS HIGHEST VALUES, TO BE KIND OF A TEMPLE OF LIBERTY.

AND THE PIECE OF PAPER THEY WROTE WAS TITLED BY THEM, FAITH AND JUSTICE.

IT WAS A VERY STIRRING DOCUMENT, AND AT A PRELIMINARY SESSION FOR THIS GREAT MOMENT IN THE CUBAN CATHOLIC CHURCH, OSWALDO STOOD UP AND READ THE PAPER THAT HE AND OFELIA HAD WRITTEN.

AND JAIME ORTEGA SAID, "NO, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO PUT THAT PAPER INTO OUR CONFERENCE," EVEN THOUGH OSWALDO HAD BEEN AT HIS SIDE, HAD BEEN HIS ASSISTANT FOR YEARS.

ORTEGA WAS FEARFUL THAT THIS WOULD AGGRAVATE FIDEL CASTRO, THAT THIS WOULD GET THEM IN TROUBLE, THAT THIS WOULD SET BACK ORTEGA'S OWN DESIRE TO FIND A PLACE IN CUBA FOR THE PERSECUTED CATHOLIC CHURCH.

WELL, THIS WAS A STUNNING DEVELOPMENT.

IT HAPPENED IN 1985, LATE 1985.

THE CONFERENCE WAS HELD IN 1986.

OSWALDO WAS THERE.

HE WAS ALLOWED TO SPEAK A LITTLE BIT, BUT HIS PAPER WAS REJECTED FOR THE FINAL REPORT OF THE CONFERENCE.

AND JAIME ORTEGA DECIDED INSTEAD TO CARRY OUT A RAPPROCHEMENT WITH CASTRO, WHICH HAPPENED IN THOSE YEARS.

AND PAYA DECIDED, AS MUCH AS HE LOVED HIS CHURCH, IT WAS NOT GOING TO BE AT THE VANGUARD OF CHANGING CUBA.

HE WOULD HAVE TO FIND ANOTHER WAY.

>>AND HELP US THROUGH THE TIMELINE.

I KNOW THAT TO BE ABLE TO HAVE THAT, I GUESS THAT WAIT, AND HAVE PEOPLE FOLLOW HIM.

THERE WAS SOMETHING ABOUT THE CUBAN CONSTITUTION THAT PLAYED A ROLE.

BUT WE HAVE TO CLARIFY THAT IT'S NOT ANYTHING THAT'S CURRENT, CURRENT CUBAN CONSTITUTION.

RIGHT?

AND SO TELL US ABOUT THAT, PLEASE.

>>YOU KNOW, YOUR QUESTION BEFORE, ABOUT WHAT MADE HIM SPECIAL, YOU CAN BEGIN TO SEE THAT THIS IS A MAN OF GREAT CONVICTION.

HE AND OFELIA, WHEN THEY WERE MARRIED IN 1986, THEY SAID TO EACH OTHER, "WE ARE NEVER GOING TO LEAVE CUBA.

WE ARE GOING TO CREATE A FREE CUBA, AND WE'RE GOING TO RAISE OUR CHILDREN IN THAT FREE CUBA."

AND THEY WERE DETERMINED TO TRY TO DO THAT FOR MANY YEARS.

WELL, IN THE EARLY SPECIAL PERIOD, IN 1990-91, AFTER THE SOVIET COLLAPSED, WHEN LIFE WAS VERY, VERY DIFFICULT.

THIS WAS THE PERIOD THAT OSWALDO PAYA BEGAN TO THINK ABOUT HOW TO CHANGE CUBA.

AND HE HAD PUBLISHED SOME SMUDGY NEWSLETTERS, WHICH WERE DISTRIBUTED IN CHURCHES AROUND HAVANA CALLED PUEBLO DE DIOS.

AND THEY WERE VERY POPULAR.

HE EXPLAINED HIS PHILOSOPHY THERE, THAT CATHOLICS SHOULD NOT FEEL DISCOURAGED AND REPRESSED, AND SHOULD ASSERT THEIR RIGHTS TO RIGHTS.

HE OFTEN SAID, WE HAVE TO BE THE PROTAGONIST OF OUR OWN HISTORY AND NOT THE SPECTATORS.

AND OSWALDO PAYA NEVER IN HIS WHOLE LIFE LIVED IN A STATE OF LIBERTY, BUT IT LIVED IN HIS MIND.

AND HE DECIDED AFTER PUEBLO DE DIOS, AGAIN, JAIME ORTEGA ASKED HIM TO STOP, TO STOP PUBLISHING THE NEWSLETTER.

HE DID FOR A SHORT WHILE, BUT HE HAD TO GO IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION.

AND HE LEARNED FROM SOME OTHERS IN CUBA, MOSTLY DISSIDENT TYPES, THERE WERE OTHERS, THAT THE 1940 CONSTITUTION OF CUBA, ITS MOST DEMOCRATIC CONSTITUTION HAD A PROVISION UNDER WHICH CITIZENS COULD PETITION THEIR STATE.

THEY COULD SIGN A PETITION FOR LAWS AND FOR CHANGE.

AND THAT CONSTITUTION REQUIRED 10,000 PEOPLE TO SIGN A PETITION FOR CHANGE.

WELL, WHEN CASTRO CAME IN, MOST OF THAT CONSTITUTION WAS EVISCERATED.

IT WAS JUST TORN UP.

BUT THAT ONE PROVISION WAS A PART OF IT THAT CASTRO DIDN'T TOUCH.

I THINK PERHAPS FIDEL DIDN'T THINK ANYBODY WOULD EVER USE IT.

IN FIDEL'S DICTATORSHIP, IT WAS HARD TO IMAGINE 10,000 PEOPLE RAISING THEIR HANDS AND OBJECTING.

AND AS YOU RECALL, FIDEL THOUGHT OF HIMSELF AS THE GREAT MAESTRO OF THE MASSES, AS THE CONDUCTOR IN FRONT OF THE HUGE RALLIES OF A MILLION IN THE PLAZA.

SO THAT PROVISION WAS THERE EVEN IN 1990 AND '91.

AND OSWALDO HAD THIS REALLY AMAZING IDEA THAT PERHAPS THAT PROVISION COULD BE USED TO BRING ABOUT CHANGE.

THE GENIUS OF THIS IDEA WAS THAT HE WAS GOING TO USE THE LAW OF THE STATE AGAINST ITSELF.

SO HE BEGAN A PROCESS OF COLLECTING SIGNATURES.

HE WAS VERY MOTIVATED AND INSPIRED BY LECH WALESA, THE POLISH SOLIDARITY LEADER, WHO ENDED COMMUNISM IN POLAND.

BUT YOU KNOW, HE WAS NOT LECH WALESA, AND HE ALSO WAS VERY FEARFUL IN THIS TIME OF TIANANMEN SQUARE, WHAT HAD HAPPENED THERE.

OSWALDO WORRIED THAT THEY COULD BE HEADING FOR A VIOLENT REVOLT, A PERIOD OF VIOLENCE AND DEATH.

IT BOTHERED HIM ALL THE TIME.

SO HOW TO CAUSE CHANGE, TO COLLECT SIGNATURES, AND NOT CREATE A VIOLENT REVOLT?

OSWALDO DECIDED TO ASK PEOPLE TO SIGN A PETITION FOR A NATIONAL DIALOGUE, WHICH IS HOW LECH WALESA HAD DONE IT.

BUT YOU KNOW WHAT?

IN 1990, '91, IN THE SPECIAL PERIOD, PEOPLE WERE HUNGRY.

THEY REALLY DIDN'T COME AND RUSH TO SIGN UP FOR A NATIONAL DIALOGUE.

IT WASN'T WORKING VERY WELL.

HE HAD ONLY A COUPLE HUNDRED SIGNATURES AND THEN THE GOVERNMENT STAGED AN ACTO DE REPUDIO AGAINST HIS HOUSE.

THEY RAIDED THE HOUSE AND KNOCKED OVER THE BOOK WITH THE SIGNATURES AND PAINTED GRAFFITI ON THE OUTSIDE.

THAT WAS JULY, 1991.

SO HERE OSWALDO HAD A KIND OF A BRILLIANT PLAN TO USE THIS MECHANISM, BUT HE DIDN'T HAVE A LOT OF SIGNATURES YET.

AND HE WASN'T REALLY SURE WHAT HE WAS ASKING OF PEOPLE.

>>DAVID, THANK YOU FOR THAT.

AND CAN YOU MENTION BRIEFLY THE VARELA PROJECT?

>>WELL, THAT'S WHAT CAME AFTER OSWALDO'S TRIAL AND ERROR.

MANY DIFFERENT THINGS HE TRIED.

HE TRIED SKETCHING OUT A TRANSITION TO DEMOCRACY.

PEOPLE WEREN'T INTERESTED IN THAT.

IT WAS TOO LONG.

HE THEN BOILED IT DOWN TO A FIVE-POINT PLAN CALLED THE VARELA PROJECT, FREE ELECTIONS, FREE PRESS, FREE ASSOCIATION, FREEDOM OF BELIEF, AND FREEDOM FOR POLITICAL PRISONERS, AND ESSENTIALLY NEW ELECTIONS.

>>AND THIS, HE STARTED TO DISTRIBUTE IN 1996 AND IT REALLY TOOK OFF, ESPECIALLY AFTER THE POPE CAME TO CUBA.

AND BY 2002, OSWALDO PAYA SUBMITTED TO THE LEGISLATURE, 11,020 SIGNATURES OF PEOPLE CALLING FOR CHANGE, PUTTING THEIR NAMES, THEIR ID NUMBERS, THEIR ADDRESSES.

PEOPLE STOOD UP AND DEMANDED CHANGE.

>>AND THAT WAS UNHEARD OF, AND IT'S STILL UNHEARD OF IN CUBA.

CORRECT?

>>IT WAS UNPRECEDENTED.

AND OSWALDO SUBMITTED ANOTHER 14,000 SIGNATURES THE YEAR AFTER, EVEN THOUGH A LOT OF HIS PEOPLE WERE ARRESTED IN THE BLACK SPRING AND TAKEN TO JAIL.

THE POINT IS THAT FIDEL THOUGHT NOBODY WOULD EVER DO THIS.

AND OSWALDO KNEW THAT PEOPLE WERE UNHAPPY THIS SPECIAL PERIOD.

THEY HAD BEEN HUNGRY, THEY WANTED CHANGE.

AND FOR THE FIRST TIME HE MOBILIZED PEOPLE, NOT ONLY FIDEL.

AND THIS IS WHAT MADE OSWALDO PAYA ENEMY NUMBER ONE, BECAUSE HE ACTUALLY MOBILIZED PEOPLE TO DO SOMETHING FOR CHANGE.

>>SO TRANSITIONING FROM WHAT YOU SAID, ENEMY NUMBER ONE, FAST FORWARDING TO WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM, AND WHY WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HIM, AND HE'S NOT HERE WITH US TODAY.

WHAT IS IT THAT HAPPENED THAT YOU WROTE IN YOUR BOOK?

WE ALSO HAVE TO TALK ABOUT WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK HAPPENED, BUT WHAT IS IT THAT HAPPENED BASED ON YOUR RESEARCH?

>>WELL, I LIKE TO DIVIDE THIS INTO THINGS WE KNOW AND THINGS WE DON'T KNOW.

THE THINGS WE KNOW ARE THAT OSWALDO PAYA IN JULY OF 2012, ON JULY 22ND, 2012 WAS GOING ON A LONG TRIP FROM HAVANA TO SANTIAGO DE CUBA.

AND HE WAS GOING TO ORGANIZE, DO SOME TRAINING OF YOUNG PEOPLE, CONTINUE TO CARRY OUT HIS QUEST FOR THE PRINCIPLES OF THE VARELA PROJECT.

HE WAS BEING DRIVEN BY A SPANIARD, AND THERE WAS A SWEDISH FELLOW IN THE FRONT SEAT OF THE CAR.

HE WAS ACCOMPANIED IN THE PASSENGER SEAT BY HAROLD CEPERO, WHO'S HIS PROTEGE.

AND THEY WERE ALMOST TO BAYAMO AND A CAR APPROACHED THEM AND HIT THEM FROM BEHIND.

THIS WE KNOW.

THE CAR WAS RAMMED.

IT WASN'T A COLLISION, BUT IT WAS RAMMED FROM BEHIND, AND THE SPANIARD WHO WAS DRIVING, ANGEL CARROMERO, LOST CONTROL OF THE CAR.

NOW WHAT WE DON'T KNOW ENTIRELY SATISFACTORILY IS ALL THE EVENTS THAT HAPPENED, BUT BY NIGHTFALL OSWALDO AND HAROLD WERE DEAD, AND THE SWEDE AND THE SPANIARD WERE IN THE HOSPITAL.

I THINK THAT THERE'S A LOT OF DOUBT HERE, PARTLY BECAUSE WHEN THERE WAS A TRIAL, WHEN ANGEL CARROMERO WAS ACCUSED OF RECKLESS DRIVING IN CUBA AND HE WAS TRIED, THERE WAS NO MENTION OF THE CAR BEING HIT FROM BEHIND.

IT WAS SIMPLY WHITEWASHED FROM THE TRIAL.

AND I THINK THAT IS A REASON FOR SUSPICION.

>>AND I WANT TO ASK YOU HOW YOU FELT WHEN YOU WERE IN CUBA DOING YOUR RESEARCH, BECAUSE THAT ALL LEADS TO YOU, DID RESEARCH IN A PLACE WHERE THERE IS NO FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND PRESS, AND YOU WORK FOR THE WASHINGTON POST, AND HERE YOU ARE DOING RESEARCH ON SOMETHING THAT WE JUST SPOKE ABOUT HAS POTENTIAL CONTROVERSY AND DEATH, THAT WE DON'T KNOW FOR SURE, BUT MAYBE SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED INTENTIONALLY.

AND SO HOW DID YOU FEEL IN CUBA?

DID YOU FEEL SAFE WHEN YOU WERE DOING YOUR RESEARCH?

>>KATIE, I WENT AS A TOURIST.

I WENT PRIMARILY SO I COULD SEE THE PLACES IN CUBA THAT WERE VERY IMPORTANT TO THE STORY.

I WANTED TO SEE THE CAPITOLIO, WHICH HAS BEEN REFURBISHED BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE THE 1940 CONSTITUTION WAS WRITTEN.

I WANTED TO SEE OSWALDO'S NEIGHBORHOOD AND WALK THE WALKS THAT HE HAD WALKED.

BUT TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, ALL OF OSWALDO'S FRIENDS AND FAMILY HAVE LEFT CUBA, AND WHEN I WAS THERE, EVERYBODY WAS GONE.

YOU KNOW, THIS IS THE SAD STORY OF CUBA.

IT WAS ONCE A BIG SPRAWLING FAMILY.

THERE WAS A TIME WHEN YOU COULDN'T GO TO THE PARISH OF SALVADOR DEL MUNDO AND SEE ANY CLASS IN CATECHISM THAT WASN'T FULL OF THE PAYA CHILDREN.

BUT AS OSWALDO'S BROTHER TOLD ME, NOW HE LIVES IN MADRID.

HE SAID, "THE ONLY PAYAS LEFT IN CUBA TODAY ARE TOMBS."

>>VERY SAD INDEED.

BUT WE DO KNOW THAT ONE OF HIS DAUGHTERS, ROSA, ROSA MARIA, IS VERY INVOLVED IN A LOT OF WHAT HE LEFT AS A LEGACY.

CAN YOU TALK TO US BRIEFLY ABOUT THAT?

>>ROSA MARIA IS IN MIAMI WITH HER FAMILY AND HAS TAKEN UP HER FATHER'S TORCH.

SHE FOUNDED AN ORGANIZATION CALLED CUBA DECIDE, IN WHICH SHE CHAMPIONS THESE IDEAS OF DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM FOR CUBA.

YOU KNOW, IT'S A DIFFICULT THING TO BE CAMPAIGNING FROM EXILE AND FROM ABROAD.

I APPRECIATE THIS, THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF CUBA THAT WANT TO SEE A DIFFERENT CUBA.

BUT OSWALDO HIMSELF SAID CHANGE IN CUBA HAS TO COME FROM WITHIN.

IT HAS TO COME FROM THE PEOPLE OF CUBA THEMSELVES.

AND THAT'S WHY THIS OUTPOURING LAST JULY 11TH WAS SO IMPORTANT, BECAUSE THIS SPONTANEOUS OUTPOURING OF UNHAPPINESS AND DISCONTENT WAS THE THING THAT OSWALDO PAYA HAD TALKED ABOUT SO LONG.

AND PAYA HIMSELF FIRST THOUGHT ABOUT CALLING HIS MOVEMENT JUST LIBERATION.

AND HE'S THE ONE WHO STARTED BY HOLDING UP HIS HAND IN AN L LIKE THIS FOR LIBERATION.

AND I DESCRIBE IN THE BOOK, AND I WANTED TO SHOW YOU THE COVER OF THE BOOK BY THE WAY.

BUT I DESCRIBE IN MY BOOK ABOUT PAYA, HOW PEOPLE SOMETIMES CAME TO HIM AND SAID, "WHY DON'T YOU LEAVE?"

DURING MARIEL, THEY CAME TO HIM AND SAID, "WHY DON'T YOU GO TO MIAMI WITH US?"

AND HE SAID, "NO.

IT'S FIDEL WHO HAS TO LEAVE."

SO PAYA REFUSED TO LEAVE.

HE CHAMPIONED THIS IDEA OF LIBERATION.

AND WHEN I SAW THOSE PROTESTORS ON JULY 11TH, HOLDING UP THEIR HANDS IN THE L, I THOUGHT OSWALDO PAYA WOULD'VE LOOKED UPON THEM AS HIS CHILDREN.

>>ABSOLUTELY.

AND WHY DO YOU THINK THAT AMERICANS SHOULD PAY ATTENTION TO THIS, TO THE STORY OF OSWALDO PAYA?

TO YOUR BOOK?

TO WHAT'S HAPPENING CURRENTLY IN CUBA?

WHY SHOULD WE CARE AS AMERICANS?

>>WELL, THIS LONG STRUGGLE FOR FREEDOM IN CUBA, IT'S LONGER THAN A CENTURY NOW, AND WE'VE INVESTED SO MUCH IN IT.

I THINK THAT IT'S IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE WHO CARE ABOUT CUBA.

BUT ALSO, IF YOU LOOK AROUND THE WORLD TODAY, THERE ARE PEOPLE ON THE STREETS OF BELARUS, IN BURMA, IN UKRAINE, IN HONG KONG AND ELSEWHERE IN CHINA, AND ESPECIALLY IN RUSSIA, A PLACE DEAR TO MY HEART.

THESE PEOPLE EVERYWHERE ARE DOING WHAT OSWALDO PAYA DID.

THEY ARE RISKING THEIR LIVES.

THEY'RE GOING OUT ON THE STREETS.

THEY'RE ASKING FOR SIMPLY THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE THEIR OWN DESTINY.

PAYA WAS A PIONEER.

HE WAS VERY MUCH IN THE MOLD OF SAKHAROV, OF VACLAV HAVEL.

I THINK THAT ANYONE WHO'S INTERESTED IN DEMOCRACY AND HOW TO FIGHT FOR IT AROUND THE WORLD AND THE DIFFICULTY OF THESE EFFORTS WILL FIND PAYA'S STORY PRETTY INTERESTING.

>>YOU'RE AN AWARD-WINNING JOURNALIST.

WE SAID THIS AT THE BEGINNING.

YOU HAVE YOUR RECOGNITION WORKING FOR THE WASHINGTON POST.

THEN YOU DECIDE TO WRITE THIS BOOK.

SO AS AN AUTHOR, WHAT IS YOUR HOPE THAT PEOPLE LEARN FROM THIS MESSAGE BECAUSE YOU ALREADY HAVE YOUR CAREER.

SO DO YOU HAVE A SPECIAL FEELING BEHIND THIS?

AND CAN YOU SHARE WITH US ANYTHING THAT CUBA MAY HAVE IMPACTED, OR ANYTHING THAT YOU CAN FEEL THAT CUBA DID INTERNALLY?

BECAUSE I KNOW IF YOU WENT THERE, YOU MAY HAVE COME BACK WITH SOME DIFFERENT THOUGHTS.

>>WELL, I PERSONALLY AM ALWAYS THINKING ABOUT HOW HARD IT IS TO STAND UP TO A SORT OF IMPLACABLE WALL IN A TOTALITARIAN SOCIETY.

I WROTE AN EARLIER BOOK ABOUT A MAN WHO WAS A SPY IN THE SOVIET UNION, AND I ASKED AT THAT TIME TOO, WHAT WAS HIS MOTIVE?

AND HE ONE TIME TURNED TO HIS HANDLER AND HE SAYS, "I JUST COULDN'T STAND THE INCREDIBLE HYPOCRISY."

YOU KNOW?

AND I THINK, AGAIN, OSWALDO PAYA IS ONE OF THOSE RARE PEOPLE WHO STAND UP AND SAY, "ENOUGH!"

THEY'RE RARE AS A DIAMOND AMONG MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.

SO FOR ME, MUCH OF THE PERSONAL REWARD OF THIS WAS BRINGING TO READERS, AND I HOPE THEY WILL BE READERS, THE STORY OF SOMEBODY WHO SACRIFICED IT ALL REALLY.

OSWALDO PAYA NEVER HAD MONETARY WEALTH, BUT BOY, DID HE HAVE AN EXTRAORDINARY WEALTH OF PERSONALITY AND DETERMINATION AND DRIVE.

AND I JUST FIND THAT UPLIFTING.

>>DO YOU THINK THAT THERE WILL BE ANOTHER BOOK WRITTEN WHERE YOU INTERVIEW CUBAN OFFICIALS FROM THAT COMMUNIST REGIME?

>>WELL, I DON'T KNOW.

I THINK RIGHT NOW, I'M JUST TRYING TO GET PEOPLE TO READ ONE BOOK.

I DON'T WANT TO PREDICT WHAT'S NEXT.

BUT TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, THE STORY HERE IN THIS BOOK THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, AGAIN, I WANT TO JUST SHOW YOU THIS COVER, ABOUT OSWALDO PAYA IS NOT ONLY ABOUT THE ONE MAN.

IT'S REALLY ABOUT THIS CENTURY-LONG STRUGGLE FOR DEMOCRACY.

I TELL IN GREAT DETAIL THE STORY OF THE 1940 CONSTITUTION AND THE LAWYER WHO HELPED WRITE IT, GUSTAVO GUTIERREZ.

I TELL THE STORY OF EDDIE CHIBAS, THE FAMOUS RADIO ANNOUNCER AND HIS DEVOTION TO CLEAN GOVERNMENT.

I TELL THE STORY OF FIDEL CASTRO AND HIS RISE.

IN FACT, SOME PEOPLE THINK MAYBE I TELL IT TOO LONG, BUT I'M NOT IGNORING THE WHOLE CONTEXT OF OSWALDO PAYA AND OF CUBA.

I TRY TO MAKE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT WHEN OSWALDO DECIDED TO DO THIS, NOT ONLY WAS IT BRAVE, BUT ALSO IT WAS EXTRAORDINARY IN TERMS OF BEING UNUSUAL.

BECAUSE THERE WERE PEOPLE IN CUBAN HISTORY WHO TRIED TO DO THESE THINGS.

AND EVERY TIME THEY FAILED, THEY PASSED THE BATON ON TO THE NEXT ONE, AND TO THE NEXT ONE.

IT WAS A VERY DIFFICULT FIGHT, AND OSWALDO PAYA INHERITED THOSE DREAMS REALLY.

AND HE DECIDED TO TURN THEM INTO ACTION, AND THAT'S WHAT MADE HIM SO UNUSUAL.

>>ABSOLUTELY.

AND DAVID, I ASKED THE QUESTION, IF YOU HAD PLANS ON INTERVIEWING PEOPLE FROM THAT REGIME FURTHER, BECAUSE THAT'S SOMETHING THAT IS STILL HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

JUST BECAUSE FIDEL CASTRO DIED, IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THINGS CHANGED IN CUBA.

MAYBE WE HAVE SEEN STORIES, OR WE HAVE SEEN A LITTLE BIT OF CHANGE WITH WHAT WE KNEW WAS RIGID AND HARSH.

BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT ROSA MARIA PAYA IS STILL DOING AND FIGHTING FOR THE RIGHTS OF THE CUBAN PEOPLE, JUST LIKE HER DAD DID.

AND SO I WANTED TO CLARIFY THAT THIS BOOK IS SOMETHING THAT WHEN PEOPLE READ IT MAY GIVE THEM PERSPECTIVE ON SOMETHING THAT ISN'T JUST A STORY THAT YOU'RE TELLING FROM A HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE, BUT IT'S ACTUALLY SOMETHING THAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

AND IT DOES RELATE TO MANY DIFFERENT COUNTRIES AND THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING CURRENTLY AROUND THE WORLD.

WHAT DO YOU WANT TO LEAVE YOUR AUDIENCE WITH NOW?

ANYTHING SPECIFIC?

DO YOU HAVE ANY PLANS ON GETTING THE BOOK TRANSLATED INTO SPANISH?

AND IF YOU CAN SHOW US THE COVER ONCE AGAIN.

>>OKAY.

YEAH.

I HOPE THAT WE GET ENOUGH READERS TO GET STARTED HERE WITH THE ENGLISH ONE.

IT WILL BE TRANSLATED MAYBE WITHIN THE YEAR OR SO.

IT TAKES A WHILE THE WAY PUBLISHING WORKS, BUT I TRULY HOPE IT WILL BE.

BUT IF YOU WANT TO READ IT NOW, IT'S OUT AND AVAILABLE NOW.

YOU KNOW, I CAME AWAY FROM THIS THINKING THAT PEOPLE ARE A LITTLE BIT, I WOULD SAY, WAKING UP TODAY TO THE THREAT THAT TOTALITARIANISM POSES TO ALL OF US.

RUSSIA AND CHINA ARE HUGE POWERS.

THEY DO NOT SHARE OUR VALUES OR OUR WAY OF LIFE.

WHAT'S HAPPENING IN UKRAINE NOW IS A REAL TRAGEDY, A BRUTAL TRAGEDY.

AND I FEEL THAT OSWALDO PAYA WAS SORT OF ON THE CUTTING EDGE OF THIS.

I HAVE FRIENDS IN BELARUS WHO STARTED AN UNDERGROUND THEATER, AND NOW THEY'VE HAD TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY.

I KNOW EXAMPLES IN BURMA.

PEOPLE ARE GIVING THEIR LIVES FOR THIS IDEA OF LIBERTY.

SO I FEEL THAT IF YOU REALLY WANT TO PUT YOURSELF ON THE FRONT LINES OF WHAT'S HAPPENING A LOT OF PLACES AROUND THE WORLD TODAY, THE BOOK WILL HELP YOU GET THERE.

>>DAVID HOFFMAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

AND THANK YOU.

WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT TIME HERE ON GLOBAL PERSPECTIVES.