Support for Overheard with Evan Smith comes from Hilco Partners, a Texas government affairs consultancy.

Claire and Carl Stuart, Christine and Philip Dial and the Eller Group specializing in crisis management, litigation and public affairs communication EllerGroup.com - I'm Evan Smith.

He's the second gentleman of the United States and he'd like to be the first.

He's Douglas Emhoff.

This is "Overheard."

A platform and a voice is a powerful thing.

You've really turned the conversation around about what leadership should be about.

Are we blowing this?

Are we doing the thing we shouldn't be doing by giving into the attention junkie?

As an industry, we have an obligation to hold ourselves to the same standards that we hold everybody else.

- Two.

- This is "Overheard."

(audience applauds) SGOTUS, welcome.

(Doug and audience laugh) Doesn't exactly trip off the tongue, I'm afraid.

- SGOTUS.

- SGOTUS, yeah.

- Sometimes Kamala calls me.

- The only thing I can say is, FGOTUS doesn't actually trip off the tongue any more easily than SGOTUS.

- Yeah, we'll need a different one.

- You'll take it though, actually, right?

Okay.

- Well, we gotta win first.

- So how was your summer?

- Well.

(audience laughs) - Anything momentous or eventful happen over the summer?

- Let's see, mid July.

- Right.

- Life changed on a dime.

- Little bit.

- And less than what, 42 days left til the election.

And here we are.

- I mean, it's kind of an amazing, compressed timeframe.

I wanna fact check the story of July 21st, if you don't mind.

So, as I understand it, you were in a SoulCycle class on July 21st, and you had left your phone in the car.

- Right - When all this happened.

- Yeah, so, I had been campaigning on the Biden Harris campaign.

I made it all the way to Phoenix and it was one of those, I just want to get home to LA and see our son, Cole, and his wife Greenley, who actually went to UT Austin.

(audience applauds) So I have some connections.

- There you go.

Okay.

- And it was that weekend when they had that glitch at the airport.

So I actually was stuck in LA for a couple of days.

So I said, "All right, I'm here Sunday morning."

- Right.

- Call my good friend Mitch and we did our normal 9:30 AM Soul Survivor class in West Hollywood, as one would do in LA.

And so we get out of the class, I don't have my phone, we're just chitchatting, having coffee.

And then I think 20 minutes after, his partner Bob just showed me his phone and said, "I think you need to see this."

And I, at first I asked, "Is this real?"

It looked, no, it's from the POTUS account.

And then being a very careful lawyer for 30 years, I always read the last line first.

And the last line was something like, "I will address the American people next week."

I thought, well, he had COVID, maybe he's gonna talk to everyone.

- You skipped over the news.

- I skipped over the news.

So I still didn't know.

I'm reading it and then I looked up and then I looked at Mitch and Bob, gave 'em a hug, and I said, "I gotta go."

- Gotta go.

(audience laughs) - And ran, then, of course, the phone, I joked, it literally had smoke coming out of it.

- [Evan] Once you got back to your phone.

- Versions of, "Call Kamala.

Call Kamala."

And then I finally call her back and she said, "Where the were you?"

- Right.

By the way- - "I need you."

- Very relatable to get crosswise with your wife in a big moment like that, honestly.

- Exactly.

Exactly.

- But you also responded, as I understand the story, in a way that felt to me very authentic.

You said, "I love you.

I'm proud of you.

I'm here for you.

And I kind of know what to do."

Right?

- Yeah, she basically said, "Okay, get to it."

- Yeah.

- I said, "Got it."

- Right.

- Thinking, "Okay, what do I do?"

But it was, basically, it became pretty obvious.

She said- - Yeah.

- She was gonna earn the nomination.

- Yep.

- And that's exactly what she did.

And it was fielding calls, calling folks, relaying information back to 'em.

And I had, just, we have this little, you know, banquette in our kitchen and I set up my little war room, which was, you know, three devices, a big pot of coffee.

So I was just sitting there calling and typing and it just kind of worked out.

But I didn't see her, I hadn't seen her for two days up to that point, 'cause I was on the road.

I didn't see her until Wilmington the next morning.

And if you remember that event, this was her, you know, talking to the country.

- Coming out.

- Coming out.

And this was me to introduce her.

So I hustled to get a flight, jumped off the plane.

- Yeah.

- Ran right into that event.

Barely said hi to her and then heard the president's voice.

The president had called in.

- Right.

Through the phone.

- Through the phone.

It was very emotional.

And I got up there, just, it was so surreal after not having seen her.

- Sure.

- And I had to address the nation to introduce my wife, who.

(laughs) I loved that.

- Well, look, the amazing thing about this is the part that's not amazing, which is you really did know what to do.

You have been America's supportive spouse for the last four years.

You described yourself once as the wife guy, and you have been the wife guy.

You have been the emblem of support for gender equity.

You're Doug Emblem, right?

(Doug and audience laugh) For the last four years.

And so of course in that moment, you make all the rest of us feel bad about our own relationships with our spouse because you seem to be so good with it, right?

But you have really done, I must say, a remarkable job in supporting her.

And I just wanna ask you to say a little bit more about that.

Has your relationship always been this way?

Is this just really a last four years thing primarily?

Did something change or pivot?

- Well, I wouldn't have lasted the first six- - I guess so.

Right.

- If that just happened these last four, right?

- Well you just celebrated 10 years of marriage, right, yes.

- We have each other's back.

I mean, this is a real marriage of equals.

When I met her, I was a entertainment lawyer in Hollywood.

She was first term attorney general.

- Right.

- Both busy professionals.

I was a single dad.

I had Cole and Ella and I was just trying to make it work.

And so she came into this and we kind of figured it out together on how to balance our careers, balance her as Mamala and all those things.

So it wasn't just overnight when she decided to run for president or become vice president.

This was something that we've been doing for each other.

- This is the way the relationship was always done.

- It's the right thing to do.

I look at Josh and Amanda and I look at how Josh was stepping up for Amanda, telling their story to the entire world.

And I know it's painful to do.

And I've done events with Josh- - Yeah.

- Telling his story just to other men.

- Right.

- And it's very, it's just hard to do that, what he's doing.

And I think it's just important for men to step up and be there when they need to be.

- So this is, for the benefit of the audience who can't see the audience here, this is Josh and Amanda Zurawski.

- That's right.

- These are reproductive rights advocates, story at the convention we heard, and they've been traveling around and telling their story.

And indeed, he has been very supportive as you have been very supportive.

- Right.

Just having each other's back.

And especially, this is a time, after July 21st, where she really needed me- - Right.

- To step up.

And there was a video of me and the kids before my DNC speech, which was actually not planned.

I had just walked in and they were filming.

- Yeah.

- And they said, "How you doing?"

And I said, "Well, I've gotta give the speech."

"How do you feel?"

I said, "The words are good.

I just need to find a way to deliver it because she needs me to do this right now.

I need to help her win.

The country needs her to be president."

- Yeah.

- And so this is just me doing what I've always done to support her.

And now I'm doing it all across the country, yeah.

- All over.

So let's talk about that.

So you've been traveling end to end in this country.

What are you hearing as you travel?

What is on people's minds?

What do they prioritize as they talk to you?

- So right now, there is so much energy and excitement and enthusiasm over the Harris Walz campaign.

And it is real.

It's kinetic.

What you've seen and the visions of the DNC speech, her rallies, it's real.

I was just in San Antonio yesterday.

11 or 1,200 people showed up.

- Right.

- Just to see me.

- Largest presidential- - I mean.

- Right, but let me- - I mean it's, it was pretty good but.

- Let me say a word about that, so that was, as I understand it, the largest presidential fundraiser in the history of the city of San Antonio.

- That came after.

- Big headline.

- That came after.

There were two events.

- Yeah.

- Big rally at SAC.

and then- - And then the fundraiser.

- And then the fundraisers.

So both were, not only in terms of numbers, but in terms of excitement, enthusiasm, and wanting to turn the page.

You can just feel around the country, and I'm going everywhere, including red states.

- Yep.

- You're feeling the same thing, whether I'm in Idaho, I was in Mississippi, I was in Florida, which there's so much excitement.

I went to The Villages.

- The Villages, which is not a democratic stronghold historically.

- No, I had, lots of golf carts, and the reason is, people are sick and tired of the divisiveness.

When Kamala said at the debate, "We have so much more in common than what divides us," it really, really resonated.

- Yeah.

- When she says, "I wanna be the president for the entire country," it's really resonating.

People, again, they're sick of the chaos and they want someone who is confident, who's a leader, who thinks about them, and who does it with a sense of joy and community, and dare I say, laughter.

- Is it, well, (Doug laughs) you do dare say.

I mean, that's been an interesting and absurd talking point.

You know, that somehow being in a good mood all the time when you're on the campaign trail is antithetical to the way we run elections, right?

They're trying to weaponize joy against the vice president.

- Yeah, with a little sprinkle of misogyny right in there.

- A little bit - Yeah, it's a little.

- So I wanna come back to this idea of you in San Antonio or you at The Villages or you around the country.

You are sort of like the fifth Beatle in this election.

(Doug and audience laugh) Right?

If you think about- - Was that Pete Best?

(laughs) - Or maybe Billy Preston.

Right?

So you have- - All right.

- You kind of have the four principals.

Harris, Walz, Trump, Vance.

You are kind of the fifth celebrity in that group.

No offense to Mrs. Walz.

She'll maybe get there at some point, but when you travel around, it's a different thing.

It's like one of the principals is in the room.

So when you're drawing these very large crowds, I mean, I wonder how that feels.

You were an entertainment lawyer in Los Angeles, one of many, now you're one of one.

From your perspective, how does that pivot feel?

- It's still a bit surreal, I have to tell you.

- Are you comfortable in that role?

- I have to be.

I have no choice.

But I think, oddly, being a Hollywood lawyer for 30 years was really good training for this because first of all, (audience laughs) no one wants to hire a shaky lawyer.

So you gotta be calm.

- Right.

- And you have to be confident and you have to be able to speak extemporaneously.

You have to digest lots of information and be able to tell stories.

But you also have to be able to listen.

A hallmark of a good lawyer in Hollywood is listening 'cause you gotta work with these people all the time.

Being someone of your word, sticking up for others.

And so it really helped me to do this.

But then again, there's nothing- - Nothing prepares you.

- That prepares you for this 'cause I even asked our first lady, our now First Lady, Dr. Biden, at the beginning, "Any advice?"

And she didn't say this to be flippant, she said, "Not really, because you're the first.

She's the first.

The times we're in right now."

And she said, "Basically, if I really explained to you what it's like, you wouldn't believe me.

You just have to experience it-" - Right.

In the moment.

- "For yourself."

And so being the second gentleman for three plus years, not doing anywhere near these types of events, but doing a lot, so you get the kind of experience doing it, but there is nothing to prepare you for, one, being told you're gonna speak at the DNC convention.

Two, you're gonna go on a night with this couple called the Obamas.

Three, your own son is gonna do a video and then get out there and introduce you.

- Yep.

Right.

- And go out there and there'll be 20,000 plus people and you know, tens of millions watching.

That's something, you just gotta do it.

And I just thought about her and I thought about, she needs me to come through right now.

- Right.

- Because I need to talk about who she is, the Kamala Harris that I know and love, and the fact that this woman is ready to be commander in chief and president on day one.

- On day one.

Well you did, I will say, objectively, I thought you did a really good job and you showed us who you were.

- Yeah.

A little bit about me.

- But I think the point is that we got to know you as well as got to know her.

And you know, honestly, the way elections work, you wanna know everybody and you want to understand what you're getting.

- Yeah.

- Let's stay with the convention for a second.

Three things occurred to me, and I traveled around the country some, not nearly as much as you, and I hear sometimes people say, "Well, what do you think about what's going on?"

And we sort of have a conversation.

And this is what comes back to me in the way of themes.

First of all, the branding of this campaign around freedom.

You know, we were talking about democracy a lot before and we still need to talk about democracy now, but democracy is a little bit more of an abstract concept.

- That's right.

- Freedom is real and personal to people and the way the campaign has defined is broader than just women's access to reproductive health.

It's about freedom to not send your kid to school at a moment when guns are everywhere.

It's about freedom to love who you love, as the vice president has said.

It's about economic freedom.

And it even came with its own theme song.

Right?

I mean, the Beyonce song seems to have been written almost perfectly for that moment in the sense that you see what's going on right before your eyes.

That was a big thing about this convention.

Maybe the biggest thing, right?

Freedom.

- Yeah and it's really resonating.

And this is why you're also hearing USA, USA chants, not only at the convention, but at most of our events, you're seeing American flags because this is who we are as Americans.

This is how we want to feel.

We love our country.

- But don't you see that as a, I mean, look, Karl Rove, who is no Democrat, right?

Who was senior advisor to President George W. Bush at the White House as a Republican strategist.

He has said a couple times to me in public recently, that was the thing about the convention that impressed him the most.

The patriotism.

- Yeah.

- The love of country.

All the flags.

He said, "I was so happy to see, finally, a democratic convention where the Democrats owned love of country and patriotism."

I mean, you've just called that out.

That was a big thing, right, also.

- And also, no, Kamala also says, freedom to be.

Just- - Yeah.

- What they have talked about, whether it's Project 2025, whether it's Dobbs and what's happened as the Zurawskis know full well, women are dying right now.

And then there's just a lack of caring.

There's just no compassion, there's no empathy.

Kamala said many times that the role of a true leader is who you can lift up.

- Yeah.

- Not who you can beat down.

And everything has been warped in what public service should be.

- Yeah.

- And again, people are sick and tired of the chest pounding.

- So love of country- - Rather than getting things done.

- Love of country would be consistent with that idea of kind of uplifting all of us.

- It's a full expression of love of country to care about freedom.

- Yeah.

- To care about not having the government, the way Tim Walz so expertly talks about it, you know, stay out of our medicine cabinet, stay out of our bedroom.

And this was the essence of the Dobbs decision, which is so scary about it.

You know, Dobbs was, Roe was based on Griswold, which is the original privacy decision.

And when Dobbs turned that over, if you looked at what Thomas said in the concurring opinion about what else can we look at?

The freedom to love who you wanna love.

- It's a gateway drug.

- Gay marriage, contraception.

So people should be upset about this, they are, and people need to turn this anger into action.

And that's what you're seeing happening.

- So I wanna- - And then it turns into joy and patriotism.

- So I wanna now look back again before we look forward.

I wanna ask you what the last four years have been like.

You talked about the conversation you had with Dr. Biden.

"Is there any preparation for this?

What should I do?"

"Well, not really."

The difference is that even today, the moment we're in is so much more perilous and tenuous than four years ago, than eight years ago, right?

I mean, the thing is, the difficulty of being a public figure, especially one in politics today, is incomprehensible, right?

The loss of privacy, the effect on your family, literally political violence has been normalized in this country to a degree that I never thought I'd see in my lifetime.

Like what has it been like to be at the center of all of that for the last four years?

- Well, it's been a lot.

- I mean, it's- - I'm sure.

- It's serving your country.

It's being there for the woman you love.

I've joked, half jokingly, I'm doing it for love and country.

But seriously though, this is the path that she's chosen and I'm gonna be there for her.

- You've never woken up one day and thought, "What did I get myself into?"

- No.

- No.

- No.

I'm happy.

I'm so good.

- And so whatever the impact on you or your family or anything else, you're prepared to take that along with the good.

- Of course.

- Yeah.

- We are in a unique position, rather than complaining about what's happening, to be able to do something about it.

- Yeah.

- I think she's spoken about her mother who came here from India as a 19-year-old.

Raised two daughters, Kamala and Maya, both incredibly successful.

And her motto was basically, "Don't complain.

Do something about it."

And so, being with Kamala, and that was really my mentality of being a lawyer so long, this is not something we talk about or even think about.

We just do it.

We just do because we're in this position and right now our country needed a leader when President Biden decided not to continue his campaign and she stepped up.

It's the election of our nation's lifetime, not just our lifetimes.

And that's why she's doing what she's doing.

And you kind of have a before and after, leading up to July 21st.

Yeah, it was a lot.

It was a lot of work.

It was an honor to be in these positions.

But since July 21st, she and I barely have any conversation other than, "Hey, good morning.

Good morning.

How you doing?

I love you.

What are you doing today?

What are you doing today?"

- November 5th.

- We'll have kind of happy couple time after the election.

- After the election.

- Right now it is focus and discipline.

- Tim Walz has said, "We'll sleep when we're dead," right?

That's basically what- - He says, "We'll sleep when we're dead."

And I say, (audience laughs) "Tim, I'm gonna sleep on the sixth, because-" - Right.

Exactly.

- "Kamala needs me.

I think Wendy needs you."

- I dunno what you're gonna be doing, but I know what I'm gonna be.

- Yes.

- So I wanna ask you about the remit of SGOTUS.

Every person in the position of being the spouse of the vice president takes on, not in a ceremonial way exactly, but takes on as kind of, you know, things to champion or to talk about out in the world, some number of issues.

For you, we talked about gender equity.

Gender equity has been a big part of your remit.

Because of your legal background, advocating for pro bono legal aid.

Making certain that everybody has access to adequate counsel.

That has also been a thing.

- Yes.

- But I want to talk about antisemitism.

Your Jewish, I'm Jewish.

We'll disclose that to the audience.

Right?

Like we both feel this stuff personally.

I wanna know if you think the antisemitism that we have seen spike over the last couple years was always there and this is the quiet part out loud because a permission structure has been put in place to allow people to say what they were thinking all this time.

Or if antisemitism is a magnitude worse now.

What do you think?

- A little bit of both.

Let's just go back.

- Yeah.

- Even to Charlottesville.

- Right.

- This is where former President Trump infamously said after those folks were marching, remember the tiki torches?

- Yeah.

- And you know what they were saying?

Jews will not replace us.

And that's where after a young woman was killed, Donald Trump said, "There are fine people on both sides."

Tree of Life happened after that.

- Right.

- The murder of Jews just praying in a synagogue.

- In Pittsburgh, yes.

- In Pittsburgh.

That happened during Trump's administration.

So I knew when they took office in early 2021 that there was already an uptick in antisemitism.

And when October 7th happened, you really did see the lid blow off.

So whether it had always been there or that just exacerbated it, whatever the reason is, after October 7th, there was a crisis of antisemitism.

- Yeah.

- Which has gone on since and that's something that- - Hasn't abated.

- Has not abated, something the vice president and I and the president and administration have all worked hard to stem, that's something that a President Harris will continue to fight against antisemitism plus hate of all kinds because it's not just antisemitism.

I was speaking at Tree of Life a few months ago at a groundbreaking, they're doing a memorial there to honor the victims.

And there I said that antisemitism and hate, it is a poison coursing through the veins of our democracy.

And we all need to be against this hate 'cause look what it's doing?

Look at the discourse now.

Look at what's happening in our political sphere right now.

- Well, in fact, the other day, you commented on remarks made by the former president, the Republican candidate, who was at an antisemitism event and said, if I lose, I'm paraphrasing, the Jews will be to blame.

He basically were scapegoating Jews pre-budding what might be a loss in the election in November.

And you came right back at him and said "We," and you meant you, I mean, you meant all of us.

"We will not be intimidated by talk like this."

- That's right.

- Right.

- Yeah, the blaming the Jews, the scapegoating, the divided loyalties to Israel and the United States.

These are incorrect.

These are all tropes.

These are some of the oldest ones in the book.

And this is what he's saying to a group of Jews at an event purporting- - About antisemitism.

- To fight antisemitism.

This is, you know, what I said, it's the height of chutzpah, as we say.

(audience laughs) Look it up if you don't know.

It's gaslighting and it just shows there's no bottom.

Just like the other day when he's, you know, the abortion ban, when he's now saying, "I'm going to be a hero to all women."

- Best president for women.

- Best president for women.

It's so outrageous when women are dying, what Amanda had to go through nearly dying here in Texas because of these Trump abortion bans.

So it's all part and parcel of the same thing.

But no, on that point, being in this role as a Jewish person, I take it very seriously.

- Well, you were in fact the first Jewish spouse of either a president or a vice president.

So in an administration.

- And I feel a lot of accountability and responsibility to not only the Jewish community, but to every community that is being beat down.

And so each and every time, and that's part of the plan that we put out, each and every time, you've got to speak up and you've got to speak out, especially those in leadership, and those in leadership who just put their hands, you know, under the table and they don't say anything, shame on them, 'cause they know better.

And there's so many people who just turn a blind eye to so many things that are happening right now that are just outrageous, especially leaders.

- And if you're not Jewish, you could be next, your community could be next.

- But look at the guy in North Carolina who's saying horrific things, comparing himself to a Nazi.

A Nazi.

And so much silence from the Republican party.

- People shrug at this.

This is the new abnormal, isn't it?

- No, but you can't, and this is why each and every time I speak out, the vice president does, and we're going to continue to do that because we've gotta get past this.

- Yeah.

- As you said, this cannot be the new normal.

Political violence cannot be normalized.

None of this can be normalized.

That's why I'm so proud of her.

I'm so proud of the campaign because we are trying to move past all that.

Move forward and leave all that behind.

- Okay.

We have 30 seconds, Mr. Emhoff.

We have 40 something days left til the campaign is concluded.

Take us to the last scene in the movie.

I mean this race, if you believe the polls, if you hear both campaigns talk about this, it is tight as can be.

It's the tightest race at this point in history.

- We are.

The message is resonating.

This message of an America where everyone has a place, this message where an economy works for everyone, this message where there's less weapons of war on our streets, where our children are being killed, where women and all of us have rights and freedom.

And I firmly believe on November 5th ish, you're gonna see she and I on the Walzes with our arms up in victory.

(audience applauds) - And then, on November 6th, a nap.

- Gonna take a little nap on the sixth.

- Good.

(audience laughs) And then go to SoulCycle.

- Definitely.

- All right.

Something like that.

All right.

- I'll bring my phone this time.

- Douglas Emhoff, thank you very much for your time.

Good to see you.

Give him a big hand.

- Thank you all.

Thank you, Evan.

- Thank you so much.

(audience applauds) We'd love to have you join us in the studio.

Visit our website at austinpbs.org/overheard to find invitations to interviews, Q&As with our audience and guests, and an archive of past episodes.

(upbeat music) (upbeat music continues) Support for Overheard with Evan Smith comes from Hilco Partners, a Texas government affairs consultancy.

Claire and Carl Stuart, Christine and Philip Dial and the Eller Group specializing in crisis management, litigation and public affairs communication EllerGroup.com (bright music)