- [Announcer] Support for "Overheard with Evan Smith" comes from: HillCo Partners, a Texas government affairs consultancy, Claire and Carl Stuart, Christine and Philip Dial, and the Eller Group, specializing in crisis management, litigation, and public affairs communication.

Ellergroup.com.

- I'm Evan Smith.

She's a two-term congresswoman from Dallas who's emerged as the raised voice and clenched fist of the opposition to Donald Trump, Elon Musk, and their ilk.

She's Jasmine Crockett.

This is "Overheard."

A platform and a voice is a powerful thing.

You really turned the conversation around about what leadership should be about.

Are we blowing this?

Are we doing the thing we shouldn't be doing by giving in to the attention junkie?

As an industry, we have an obligation to hold ourselves to the same standards that we hold everybody else.

- [Automated Countdown] Two.

- This is "Overheard."

(audience applauds) Congresswoman, great to see you.

Thank you so much.

- It's great to be here with you.

- For being here.

How's it going?

(audience laughs) That's kind of an existential question, but like in a literal sense.

You're in the middle of everything.

We only get to watch from the outside.

You're on the inside.

How's it going?

- It's not going well.

- Yeah?

Say more about that.

- Yeah, and I think that, first of all, let me thank everyone that's here.

The reason that I do the work that I do is because of you, and I try to do everything that I can to make sure that I'm continuously focused on the people that are back home, the people that are relying on me to be an authentic and unwielding voice for them.

And so I just wanna say thank you again to each of you.

I am going to say that it's really bad because not only are we enduring something we've never experienced before.

As we came up on the State of the Union address, we started to look through history and figure out, what does one do when a dictator is coming through?

I mean, like we were trying to figure out, like what are the options?

And it is true that we are in a time that we've never seen before.

We have someone that does not believe in co-equal branches of government, and then we have people that are party to those other co-equal branches that have decided that they would cede their constitutional oaths and responsibilities to kneel to, I don't even know if it's Trump, right?

Like, it feels as if Elon is really like running everything and Trump is just hanging out, signing whatever executive order somebody puts in front of him.

And when he is not doing that, he's just posted up at Mar-a-Lago, you know, playing golf, right?

And so Elon hasn't seen all the waste 'cause we've, you know, spent a whopping more than $10 million already on Trump and golfing at Mar-a-Lago.

I'm sure there's a few things we could do with that $10 million that would be more productive.

And what's most concerning to me, and it's why I am so happy that I'm specifically here with this platform, is that there is not only an attack on us as Americans.

And when I say us, it's not Democrats.

I specifically say us as Americans because there were those that really thought that Donald Trump was gonna make their lives better, and they went out and voted for him because of that, right?

- Right.

- But right now they're like, "Well, wait a minute.

"Veterans are being fired, "and, you know, what's gonna happen to the VA?"

Because they're talking about they wanna get rid of 80,000 jobs at the VA. And if you know anything about the VA, people been telling us more and more is needed.

Not less, right?

- Not less, less, yeah.

- Or the people that don't understand that when you're looking at something like the Consumer Protection Bureau, that they actually have fees that they charge, and a lot of those fees go to take care of a lot of the salaries.

Like there are no savings, really, that we will see by firing people.

But I can tell you that by firing people and with costs going up that a recession is upon us.

And that's not good for anyone.

- Do you think that the economy is, I mean, there've been signs that people are becoming concerned about the state of the economy.

I'll come back to the people who voted for this and what they think about this in a second.

But you're worried about the economy.

- Oh, I absolutely am.

- Yeah.

- And it didn't have to be this way.

And I understood that we went through hyperinflation as it relates to COVID-19.

Like literally it's like, wait a minute, one day we're paying this, and then it ballooned.

But then that inflation started to slow, right?

And then, you know, we had an administration that was looking into the greed.

We even had an admission from Kroger that they were price gouging, right?

They were taking advantage.

And so, you know, instead of having an administration that's looking into price gouging, we have an administration that, you know, when we were getting rid of junk fees or when we were getting rid of things such as the overdraft fees, right?

Like, you know, you'd end up paying $35 per overdraft fee.

They were like, "That is extortion," right?

So they were capped at $5.

Now, please explain to me why it makes sense that Republicans are like, "No, no, no, no.

"We want the banks to go back to extorting people", right?

- Yeah, let me come back to the point you made.

So we had an election.

We believe the election was conducted fairly unlike some have alleged previous elections.

- Unless and until, I'm hearing the audience, unless and until I have evidence otherwise, yes.

- Yes, right, okay.

(audience laughs) Right.

- I am still data-driven.

I'm a data-driven person.

- This will be a different conversation if we're gonna go down that path.

Okay, so we assume that the election was conducted fairly, and the president won not just the Electoral College, but he won by a significant margin.

- Yeah.

- The popular vote, didn't get to 50%, but he won the popular vote by $7 million.

The point is, people voted for him.

- Yes.

- The question is whether people voted for this.

- [Jasmine] Yes.

- So then what do we think about how the people who voted for him are viewing the moment we're in?

- I think that there's a lot of regret.

I think that the sycophants, there's nothing that you can say about them.

Like there is a real cult that is taking place, and they follow their leader, and they believe whatever he says, and they're just gonna get in line.

And then there are those that are like, "Well, wait a minute.

"Like why is it that I don't have healthcare, "but the billionaires are still having "like multimillion-dollar weddings?

"Like why is it "that I'm not going to be able to go to college, "or my kid isn't gonna be able to go to college, "or I'm not gonna be able to eat "because they're getting like... "Wait a minute, what is the point of this?

"Like what is happening?"

- But of course these are effects, congresswoman, these are things that may be felt, may happen as a consequence of it.

I mean, he's only been in the White House for a couple months.

- Imagine that.

- As we sit here.

(audience laughs) As we sit here.

I mean, really, in the end, the oldest saw in the world is true: elections have consequences.

- [Jasmine] Yes.

- Good consequences and bad.

And the country voted for Donald Trump.

We'll see what the products of that decision are.

- We are already seeing.

- Yeah.

- And they are not good.

There's no one that is yelling and screaming that, "Oh, yes, we're so happy "you fired all these people at the VA." - Stay with that and the role that Elon Musk is playing.

What do you think is the goal here?

I mean, it may seem obvious to you, it may seem obvious to some people watching this, but, in the end, what are they working toward with everything that we've seen so far?

- Making us Russia Junior.

I mean, I don't really know what to say.

Because, you know, one of the things that we benefit from as Americans is really our ignorance.

And I'm gonna say that with all love, right?

Because we've had so much privilege, right?

Like to the north and the south of us, we have friends, or at least they used to be friends.

I don't know how friendly they wanna be with us nowadays, right?

But like we've shared like a very friendly relationship, and in the east and the west we've had water.

And so we've not had to worry about having kind of hostile neighbors that are right there at the border and that kind of stuff.

That is a privilege of living in this country.

That cannot necessarily be said when you are living in certain parts of the Middle East or when you're living in Europe.

Like you may have friends over here and then enemies right here.

It's a lot different, okay?

And so we've enjoyed that privilege.

And right now to have someone that is literally picking fights with our friends for no reason?

Like why are we in a trade war?

Like what exactly happened?

Like who is this helping?

Like it's just crazy.

Like why, why, why?

I can tell you though, that housing costs, if we continue to play this game with Canada, our housing costs are gonna go up.

Like that is something that people absolutely said, housing costs were already too high.

But this is where we get a lot of our steel and lumber from.

- Right.

And the tariffs, let's just say, something that seems obvious, that the tariffs are not only gonna affect Democratic households.

- [Jasmine] Correct.

- Or the households of people who did not support this president.

- Correct.

- That will be indiscriminate.

It'll affect everybody.

- Absolutely.

And that was one of the things that, you know, I think really got lost.

I will say that we've allowed ourselves to be distracted.

During that election, we got distracted.

When I was traveling the country on behalf of VP Harris, I would hear people saying things like, "Well, the Democrats have emasculated us."

And I was like, "Well, what exactly does that mean?

"Is it 'cause it's a woman?"

Or, you know, I would hear some of them felt that way because there were all the conversations around reproductive rights.

And I'm like, "Here's the deal.

"If she got in office and she decided "that women should have bodily autonomy, great.

"I don't know how that makes you any less of a man."

Like, I mean, I'm just like, "What is happening," right?

But they were seeping them kind of with this information.

"It's a woman and she's looking out for women's rights."

Okay, but it doesn't mean that she's not looking out for anybody else.

Like, you know, and what we've got right now is a guy that lied.

And I'm like, the fact that we believed him, I'm kind of confused 'cause he's like a known liar.

And so why we believed him, I don't know.

But he said, "I know nothing about Project 2025."

And so every time I would get, you know...

I remember doing a hearing one time because I was trying to educate people through hearings about Project 2025.

And I had a witness that I knew from Democracy Forward that I knew knew the answer, right?

Actually because we had been in Austin here on a panel.

So I knew that she knew.

So I said, you know, 'cause as a lawyer you're not supposed to ask a question... - Unless you know the answer.

- Unless you know the answer.

- That's it, right, exactly, yeah.

- I knew she knew.

- I know that part.

All right, yeah.

- So I'm like, "So is Donald Trump name, "is his name mentioned at all in Project 2025?"

And then she wanted to go into this.

I was like, "Girl, we ain't got time for that."

'Cause you only get five minutes.

So it was like, I was like, "Just yes or no?"

And so she's like, "Yes."

And I was like, "Is it mentioned more than once?"

"Yes."

"Is it mentioned more than..." And then I finally said, "It's mentioned 312 times."

So it's very interesting that he's saying that he has no idea about it, and he's like all through it, right?

And so now what we see is that he did not want to embrace Project 2025 because it was clear that the American people were rejecting Project 2025.

That was getting rid of Department of Education, that was consolidating power with the executive branch, that was getting rid of things such as... Well, we see what's happening to our farmers, right?

It was getting rid of NOAA so that we would not know, "Oh, there's weather issues", right?

It was really putting forth a fight against the free press, right?

And we're seeing that in real time.

Like who kicks the Associated Press out of anything?

Like what are we doing, right?

All because they refuse to call the Gulf of Mexico Gulf of America.

- Gulf of America.

So you're saying that basically he's, and I think this is something that you and others have said, that he campaigned one way, told us one thing, and then has come into office and is doing something else.

- Correct.

- So let me ask you about your fellow Democrats and the place of Democrats in Congress and around the country in pushing back and opposing this in ways that are meaningful.

Is the party, are the opponents up to the task?

Because at least for the first two months, it's felt like he and the administration have pretty much done whatever they want.

And it's largely been without anything in their way.

So tell me about how you feel about the opposition at this point.

- Yeah.

Okay, all right.

So I will say we are a big tent party.

Start there, level set.

- Okay, yeah.

- And I'm going to say that I think resistance means different things to different members of the caucus.

For me, it's to get a little rowdy.

Just saying.

- You know how to make a fist.

- I do, I do.

(audience applauds) I will also say that I enjoy privileges that other members of my caucus don't.

- [Evan] Why?

- I have the most Democratic seat in the state.

- You're not at risk electorally.

- I'm not at risk at all.

- Yeah.

- I also will say that I also don't wanna be in a place in which I don't feel like I can represent the way that I wanna represent.

And I believe in democracy.

So I believe that my district should fire me if they take issue with how I fight.

I believe that that is their right.

I believe that that's what they should do.

So I don't go into everything scared about my next election because I feel like it paralyzes you.

- Yeah.

- And I think... - And is that what's going on?

- Yes, in my opinion.

- So where you have Democrats not fighting, you think it's because they're concerned about... - They're concerned about their next election.

- What happens in two years.

- Yeah, they're concerned about the next election.

And I think...

I personally see it a little differently.

I think that we have to be willing to put it all on the line in this moment because I don't know what's on the other side if there is another side, right?

Like I think my level of fear about this moment may be more heightened than others.

I think that some people are still kind of functioning like there's no way that he can destroy everything.

And I'm like, "Have y'all seen "what he's done in the last few days?"

- Yeah, yeah.

- You know, so I think that there's also kind of those people that are institutionalists that believe that the institution will survive.

And I'm like, "It's real weak.

"It's on life support right now."

- So does the party then need to be more like you or more like the people who are operating out of either fear or concern for their own situation?

I mean, I wanna stay with this.

Because what I hear over and over from people who are frustrated with, to say the least, frustrated with what they've seen over the last two months is, "Where are the people "who are supposed to be pushing back on this?

"Why are they not pushing back hard?"

- I think that our approach should be that we have a quarterback.

- Who's your quarterback?

- It's Hakeem.

- Hakeem Jeffries?

- Yes.

So I think that we should approach it... - How's he doing?

- That's for the people to decide.

- No, I'm asking you though.

(audience laughs) - I mean, the people look at it one way, the caucus looks at it another way.

His job is to keep every faction of the caucus together.

And... - But isn't his job to lead the effort to oppose, in a respectful but firm way, what he does not think is right for the country?

- I think that he's leading in that way, according to him.

- Right, you're hedging.

(audience laughs) I have never known you to hedge in your life.

- I know!

But like, listen.

- Why are you hedging?

- You know, it's complicated!

But, listen, just let me... (audience laughs) I mean, read between the lines.

I don't really know what to say.

But I will say this... (audience laughs) - You may think you didn't say, but you said.

- Eh, I'm doing my best.

I think, because we're in Texas and we love football, I think if we look at this like a football team.

Because everything is about being a team in the legislature.

Like we're not the executive branch.

Like you've gotta have teammates.

So I'm trying to make sure I still got teammates, okay?

- Right.

- So you gotta have teammates.

And I think that we need to understand that, if you're the quarterback, you're also not the wide receiver, the running man.

- Running back, yes, yes.

- Yeah, the running back.

(audience laughs) - That was very Texas of you.

(audience laughs) The running man.

- Yeah, you know, you're not playing the line.

And I think that what we need to embrace is that everybody has their role.

And I think what's happening right now is everybody wants everybody to hit the same note.

And it's just not gonna happen.

- It's not realistic.

- It's not realistic.

Because of the type of districts that people come from or because of literally who they are.

Not everybody can do a podcast, so let's stop with it, right?

Like some things are real awkward, right?

Like some people just should not do it.

And, I mean, this is real.

And then when you think about like, like right now we're like, "Oh, Dems gotta do more communicating, "and what does that look like?"

Like it's kind of like... Love you Chuck Schumer, I do.

That means that something's coming.

- Yes.

- So when we went out and we protested with so many of our amazing grassroots organizations in front of Treasury, it was great.

This was like the largest one that we had as it relates to House members and Senate members that were participating.

And all I kept hearing about was, "Y'all should have left Chuck at home."

Not everybody can go out and get there in the streets.

Like so I think we need to understand that, embrace that, and encourage every portion of our team to just be great in their lane.

And I think the idea... - And be authentic.

- And be authentic, exactly.

So I think where we're going wrong is that we want everybody to do the same thing.

- [Evan] Right.

- And no one can get on the same page about what that thing is.

- [Evan] About what the same thing is.

- Exactly.

- Right, right.

Do you reject the idea that there are things to learn from the success of the other side as the party looks to strategize for the next couple of months?

- I don't reject it at all.

- [Evan] You don't?

- And I think that if there are those people that can punch and are willing to punch, then we should be allowed to punch.

- Yeah.

- I mean, there was a headline that came out, so I'm not disclosing anything, even though I was actually being very cautious about disclosing things.

- Yeah.

- About the fact that a number of us were pulled into an office.

- Right.

Not saying whose office it was.

- No, but if you Google, you'll find the article.

You know, and saying like that we were, and I'm like...

I need the freedom to... - What was the message?

You were too much off the leash?

Is that what the message was?

- Pretty much.

- Yeah.

- With the State of the Union.

- Right.

- But nobody remembers anything from the State of the Union but Al Green.

So I'm like... - Right.

What did you, by the way... (audience applauds) We are sitting here a couple days after the State of the Union where Al Green did protest and was escorted out and now has been censured by the House.

What'd you think about Congressman Green's approach?

- I loved it.

- You did?

- I did, I did, I loved it.

(audience applauds) And if I felt like I could, I would've.

I'll say that.

- If you felt like you could have done the same thing, you would've?

- Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

- I mean, I think it's so interesting that people are standing on ceremony about that.

Oh, we're gonna do decorum now?

Is that happening, right, yeah?

People don't remember the last couple of States of the Union, including one during President Obama's term, when somebody yelled, "You lie," at him.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I will say that, for me, I understand that we are literally at war, and so I have to evaluate each battle as it comes.

- [Evan] Right.

- And Al Green, love him, have loved him for a very long time, and Al Green is in a different position than I am.

Al Green is an 80-year-old Black man, and I'm sure that what this administration is doing is hitting him differently than it hits me.

- Right.

- This is a man who grew up, we're about to celebrate the 60th anniversary of Bloody Sunday, this is somebody who actually saw like people be bloodied and bludgeoned.

So I do believe that he understands the history and connects to the history completely differently as it relates to how he was able to be able to even sit in the chamber.

- Yeah.

- And forget all this decorum.

'Cause I don't understand how we say he's a dictator and he's this and he's that and he's a fascist and the oligarchy, and then we say, "But we're gonna go in "and we're gonna sit.

"We're gonna be in decorum."

- You said something earlier about institutions and institutionalists.

I mean, there is this real tension at the moment about norms and institutions and if there's an asymmetrical view of this.

Like one side is protecting norms and institutions.

Are both sides?

- No.

- I was busting your chops, Democrats, about how you responded.

Let me bust my chops and the chops of people in the media.

I asked you if Democrats were up to the task.

Is the media up to the task in this moment?

- No.

- No.

Say more about that, pile on.

- I think that that goes to the freedom of the press thing.

I think that people are consistently being intimidated and paralyzed.

And so, you know, there is a question about whether or not if you have anything ugly or truthful to say about Donald Trump, what will happen?

- [Evan] Yeah.

- What will that retribution look like?

And I think that what we saw on State of the Union, kind of bringing in the Al situation, is, if everyone stands together, then it's hard to go after everybody.

But if everybody falls, then it's easy enough, right?

And so I think that that's the problem.

I think that even though you compete in whatever ways you compete, I think that the media needs to stand together.

I think that as he decided he wanted to kick out the Associated Press, everybody else should have left and said, "You know what?

"Nobody's gonna cover you."

(audience applauds) - Congresswoman, we have just a couple minutes.

There are presumably some people watching who don't agree with you.

But there are people watching who do and who may think, "I want to do something in my community for myself "to try to demonstrate that we can have impact."

- Yeah.

- So what would you recommend to people who are watching who want to figure out how they can be important and impactful in their communities in this moment?

What would you recommend people do?

- So I'm gonna say, whether you associate yourself as a Democrat, Republican, or independent, the things that I'm fighting for, they have nothing to do with partisanship.

They have everything to do with me caring about people.

When we pass legislation that funds and helps those that are struggling the most, that makes for a stronger America.

And I'm not looking and saying, "Check their voter registration first."

What I am looking at what is right versus wrong.

I am the child of a preacher.

So I actually don't just say I'm a Christian, I do it in the way that I pass policy or try to pass policy.

And so what I will say is that, so long as we are a democratic republic, recognize your power.

The power in a democratic republic, it resides with the people.

And once the people start to feel as if they are powerless, then people like Trump win.

What we've seen is we've seen the town halls all over the country, and we've seen the power of the people.

People have shown up, and they are trying to hold their representatives accountable.

And I think that you need to do that whether your representative is a Democrat or a Republican.

- Are you doing town halls in your district?

- Well, I'm kind of busy.

But!

- Right.

But, see, congresswoman, you understand that what's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?

- No, no, no.

And don't get it twisted now, okay?

I do wanna say that I've always done town halls.

- Right.

- Because we actually do quarterly town halls.

They are tele-town halls.

And that is more so because, when I first came in, it was still kind of COVID-ish and that kind of stuff.

But, also, we usually have no less than 7,000 people on there.

I can't fit 7,000 people.

- In one room.

- Exactly.

- So you think everybody should be subjecting themselves to this kind of accountability from the public they represent?

- Absolutely.

And I am going to be having my tele-town hall next week.

You know, I absolutely believe that.

But I'm also like traveling the country and doing a lot of things.

So, you know, thankfully my district gives me grace.

But one of the things that I'm actually working on is actually going into Republican districts where they don't wanna show up.

(audience applauds) - They won't show up, but you will.

Yeah, missed it.

Making them miss it.

- Right now, Eric Swalwell is in, Boise?

I think he's in Boise, Idaho right now.

And he's doing a town hall.

Because the thing is, we've pushed for legislation that really is impactful and helpful to everyone.

- Yeah.

- And I think that it's easier for people to understand that I'm a real person who really is not trying to inflict harm, but I actually want to help if we can sit down and have conversations.

So I wanna show up, I wanna let them know that I lived in East Texas, so I know what it is to live in rural America.

I know what it is to be nervous that the tire plant is gonna close or International Paper is gonna close, or the chicken plant and how that impacts the community.

I know this.

I also served on the Agriculture Committee, so I've consistently talked to farmers, and I know their challenges.

And I also know what it's like when your hospitals are closing, right?

So I know these things.

And so when I legislate, I legislate to, yes, help my district, but the help that goes to my district, it goes far beyond my district.

And so I wanna have these very real conversations with them.

- Okay, we're gonna leave it right there.

Congresswoman, thank you very much for coming.

It's good to see you.

- Thank you.

- [Evan] Thank you for your service.

- It's good to see you.

(audience applauds) - [Evan] We'd love to have you join us in the studio.

Visit our website at austinpbs.org/overheard to find invitations to interviews, Q&As with our audience and guests, and an archive of past episodes.

- They want the debt ceiling raised.

So why are people losing their jobs, why are people losing their healthcare And we still have to raise the debt ceiling?

Because they have decided that they want these deep tax cuts for the billionaires who already are enjoying tax cuts.

- [Announcer] Support for "Overheard with Evan Smith" comes from: HillCo Partners, a Texas government affairs consultancy, Claire and Carl Stuart, Christine and Philip Dial, and the Eller Group, specializing in crisis management, litigation, and public affairs communication.

Ellergroup.com.

(soft flute music)