>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

CANADA'S NEW PRIME MINISTER COMES TO THE WHITE HOUSE AS OLD ALLIES NAVIGATE NEW CONFLICTS.

WE GET THE LATEST.

> >> AND MILITARY DRILLS IN KASHMIR AS TENSIONS FLARE BETWEEN INDIA AND PAKISTAN.

SO WHAT COULD COME NEXT?

I ASKED THE NEW YORK TIMES SOUTH ASIA BUREAU CHIEF.

> >> PLUS.

>> I HAVE EXTENDED AN INVITATION TO PRESIDENT TRUMP HIMSELF TO COME AND SEE IT FOR HIMSELF, AND I CAN TAKE HIM TO THE HOMES OF BLACK AND WHITE FAMILIES THAT HAVE RAW SEWAGE ON THE GROUND.

>> HOLY GROUND.

ENVIRONMENTALISTS CATHERINE COLEMAN FLOWERS TALKS TO MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT RURAL COMMUNITIES, AND HER MISSION TO BRING THEM CLEAN WATER.

> >> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JAN ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, SYLVIA A AND SIMON B PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS.

MARK J BLACKNER.

THE FILM AND M D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SEATON J MELVIN.

THE POG PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

CANADA'S NEW PRIME MINISTER, MARK CARNEY, CAME FACE-TO-FACE WITH U. S. PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP AT THE WHITE HOUSE TODAY.

AN OLD STUDY ALLIANCE NOW MORE FRAUGHT THAN EVER, WITH TRUMP SLAPPING TARIFFS ON HIS NEIGHBOR AND THREATENING TO MAKE IT THE 51st STATE.

CARNEY AND HIS LIBERAL PARTY NOTCHED A SURPRISE WIN AT THE POLLS JUST OVER A WEEK AGO, AND CANADIANS DECIDED HE IS THE BEST MAN TO TAKE ON TRUMP.

LISTEN TO THE EXCHANGE IN THE OVAL OFFICE AFTER A REPORTER ASKED THE PRESIDENT IF HE STILL WANTED CANADA TO BECOME PART OF THE UNITED STATES.

>> I'M A REAL ESTATE DEVELOPER AT HEART WHEN YOU GET RID OF THAT ARTIFICIALLY DRAWN LAND, SOMEBODY DREW THAT LINE MANY YEARS AGO WITH, LIKE, A RULER, JUST A STRAIGHT LINE RIGHT ACROSS THE TOP OF THE COUNTRY.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THAT BEAUTIFUL FORMATION WHEN IT'S TOGETHER, I'M A VERY ARTISTIC PERSON, BUT WHEN I LOOKED AT THAT BEAUTY, I SAID, THAT'S SO, IT WAS MEANT TO BE.

BUT, YOU KNOW, IT'S, I JUST, I DO FEEL IT'S MUCH BETTER FOR CANADA.

>> AS YOU KNOW, FROM REAL ESTATE, THERE ARE SOME PLACES THAT ARE NEVER FOR SALE.

>> THAT'S TRUE.

>> WE'RE SITTING IN ONE RIGHT NOW, YOU KNOW, BUCKINGHAM PALACE AS WELL.

AND HAVING MET WITH THE OWNERS OF CANADA OVER THE COURSE OF THE CAMPAIGN LAST SEVERAL MONTHS, IT, IT'S NOT FOR SALE.

IT WON'T BE FOR SALE.

>> THE OWNERS OF CANADA BEING THE VOTERS AND CONSTITUENTS OF THE COUNTRY.

HERE NOW IS FRANK McKENNA, FORMER CANADIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES.

AMBASSADOR McKENNA, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM FROM TORONTO.

I KNOW YOU WERE LISTENING TO THAT VERY LIVELY AND WIDE- RANGING PRESS CONFERENCE, LET'S JUST STICK TO THE CONVERSATION AS IT RELATES TO CANADA.

PRIME MINISTER CARNEY CAMPAIGNED AS THE MAN FOR THE MOMENT, SAYING THAT HE DOES NOT MAKE A GOOD LEADER WHEN TIMES ARE CALM, BUT HE IS THE MAN WHEN THERE IS A CRISIS.

GIVEN THAT HE IS A POLITICAL NOVICE, AS HE WENT INTO THAT OVAL OFFICE MEETING WITH THE PRESIDENT, HOW DO YOU THINK HE FAIR?

>> I THOUGHT HE DID TERRIFIC.

HE REALLY HAD A DIFFICULT TALENT, BECAUSE CANADIANS ARE EXTRAORDINARILY UPSET AND, AND VERY UNITED IN THEIR ANIMOSITY AT THE PRESENT TIME TOWARDS THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

BUT HE ALSO IS SITTING DOWN WITH OUR BIGGEST CLIENT, ALLIED FRIEND, AND HE NEEDS TO DEMONSTRATE THAT A RESPECTFUL RELATIONSHIP AT A MUTUALLY PROFITABLE RELATIONSHIP CAN BE ACHIEVED.

>> WELL, HE SEEMED WELL PREPARED AND REHEARSED.

THAT LINE SPECIFICALLY ABOUT CANADA NOT BEING FOR SALE, ADDRESSING HIM AS A REAL ESTATE EXPERT, SAYING YOU KNOW REAL ESTATE WELL, SOME THINGS ARE NOT FOR SALE, INCLUDING OUR COUNTRY.

WE NOTED THAT HE IS A POLITICAL NOVICE.

HE WAS A FORMER BANKER AT GOLDMAN SACHS.

HE WAS A CENTRAL BANK HEAD OF CANADA, AND ALSO THE HEAD OF THE BANK OF ENGLAND.

SO HE COMES WITH VAST EXPERIENCE AS IT RELATES TO ECONOMICS, AND AS IT RELATES TO THIS CRISIS AT HAND FOR THE NATION.

I'D LIKE TO PLAY SOUND FOR YOU FROM SOME OF THE OPENING EXCHANGES BETWEEN THE TWO LEADERS, WHICH WERE ACTUALLY QUITE CORDIAL.

>> IT'S A GREAT HONOR TO HAVE PRIME MINISTER MARK CARNEY WITH US, AS YOU KNOW.

JUST A FEW DAYS AGO HE WON A VERY BIG ELECTION IN CANADA, AND I THINK I WAS PROBABLY THE GREATEST THING THAT HAPPENED TO HIM, BUT I CAN'T -- >> BUT YOU'RE, YOU'RE A TRANSFORMATIONAL PRESIDENT FOCUSED ON THE ECONOMY WITH A RELENTLESS FOCUS ON THE AMERICAN WORKER, SECURING YOUR BORDERS, PROVIDING, ENDING THE SCOURGE OF FENTANYL AND OTHER OPIOIDS, AND, AND SECURING THE WORLD.

>> YOU SEE THE PRESIDENT THERE NODDING IN AGREEMENT WITH THE, THE ANALYSIS THERE OFFERED BY PRIME MINISTER CARNEY.

WAS THAT THE RIGHT APPROACH, IN YOUR VIEW LEXI >> IT, I THINK ONE HAS TO BE RESPECTFUL BUT NOT OBSEQUIOUS.

CANADIANS WOULD NEVER TOLERATE OUR, OUR PRIME MINISTER GENUFLECTING TO THE PRESIDENT.

CANADA IS A SOVEREIGN COUNTRY.

CANADIANS ARE UNITED.

40 MILLION PEOPLE ARE ALL UNITED IN THE, IN, IN SUPPORT OF OUR COUNTRY, AND, YOU KNOW, THAT IS REALLY COMEDY, THE PROPER COURSE FOR OUR PRIME MINISTER TO TAKE.

TO RESPECT THE PRESIDENT FOR THE OFFICE THAT HE HOLDS, BUT NOT TO BE GENUFLECTING AND BEING OBSEQUIOUS TOWARDS HIM AT ALL.

THERE'S NO NEED FOR THAT.

>> AND THE PRIME MINISTER WENT ON TO SAY THAT THERE ARE SOME AREAS WHERE THEY DEFINITELY CAN WORK ON, AND THAT IS CANADA INVESTING MORE IN ITS OWN SECURITY AND DEFENSE, ALSO ITS CONTRIBUTION AS IT RELATES TO GDP PERCENTAGE FOR NATO.

HE CREDITED PRESIDENT TRUMP FOR REVITALIZING NATO.

BUT HE ALSO REMINDED THE PRESIDENT THAT CANADA IS THE LARGEST CLIENT OF THE UNITED STATES, AND I'M CURIOUS HOW HE SHOULD, WE DIDN'T SEE WAS LITIGATED IN FRONT OF THE CAMERAS, BUT BEHIND CLOSED DOORS, HOW SHOULD HE PUSH BACK ON JUST THE, BEFALLS MATH THAT THE PRESIDENT CONTINUES TO BROADCAST ABOUT THE TRADE DEFICITS?

HE, HE CONTINUES TO SAY THAT IT'S AROUND $200 BILLION AS IT RELATES TO CANADA WHEN YOU TAKE OUT OIL.

FIRST OF ALL, IT'S ACTUALLY ABOUT $60 BILLION.

YOU TAKE OUT SERVICES, IT'S HALF OF THAT, AND THEN YOU TAKE OUT THE OIL THAT THE UNITED STATES BUYS FROM CANADA, AND WE ACTUALLY HAVE A SURPLUS HERE.

HOW WOULD YOU ADVISE THE PRIME MINISTER TO REMIND THE PRESIDENT THAT THE FACT THAT HE'S COMING TO THESE NEGOTIATIONS WHICH ARE JUST WRONG TO BEGIN WITH?

>> WELL, YOU'RE WELL-INFORMED.

THAT'S EXACTLY THE MATH, AND EVERY CANADIAN KNOWS SOME MATH.

WE ARE, WE, WE BUY MORE FROM THE UNITED STATES THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, MORE THAN THE ENTIRE EUROPEAN UNION PUT TOGETHER.

BUT THAT'S NOT ALL.

OUR TRADE RELATIONSHIP IS ALMOST IMBALANCED, WHICH IS ALMOST MIRACULOUS, CONSIDERING IT'S THE LARGEST TRADING RELATIONSHIP IN THE WORLD.

THE, THE SURPLUS IN CANADA'S FAVOR THAT YOU MENTIONED WAS ALMOST A ROUNDING ERROR IN THE RELATIONSHIP.

AND WE PROVIDE ALL OF THESE RAW MATERIALS WHICH CAN KICK JOBS OUT OF CANADA, IN THE CASE OF OIL AND ALUMINUM AND STEEL AND POTASH AND URANIUM, AND EXPORT THEM TO THE UNITED STATES.

SO IT'S A BIG PLUS FOR THE UNITED STATES.

SO I'M CONVINCED THE, THE MATH WILL BE DISCUSSED IN GREAT DETAIL.

SOMEHOW, RATHER, WE GOT TO, WE'VE GOT TO TELL THE PRESIDENT, YOU'RE ENTITLED TO YOUR OPINION, BUT YOU'RE NOT ENTITLED TO YOUR FAX.

AND THE FACTS ARE THAT CANADA IS AN EXTRAORDINARILY IMPORTANT CONTRIBUTOR TO THE UNITED STATES ECONOMY, AND THAT WE'RE ALL BETTER OFF IN NORTH AMERICA THAN WE ARE GOING ON OUR OWN.

BUT I THINK THE PRIME MINISTER AND HIS MINISTERS WILL BE EMPHATIC ABOUT THAT, BECAUSE IT IS REALLY IRRITATING TO CANADIANS TO HEAR THIS FALSE CLAIM REPEATED OVER AND OVER AGAIN WHEN IT'S JUST FACTUALLY NOT TRUE.

NONE OF IT IS TRUE.

>> SO HOW SHOULD THE PRIME MINISTER RESPOND WHEN YOU HEARD FROM THE PRESIDENT JUST THERE IN THE OVAL OFFICE REPEAT WHAT HE HAD POSTED ON TRUE SOCIAL GOING INTO THIS MEETING, AND THAT IS, WE DON'T NEED CARS, WE DON'T NEED STILL, WE DON'T NEED ALUMINUM, WE DON'T NEED ANY OF THAT FROM CANADA.

THERE'S NO REASON TO SUBSIDIZE CANADA.

HE USED THAT WORD, SUBSIDIZE, AGAIN.

>> YEAH.

WELL, I THINK THE PRIME MINISTER JUST JUST THE SET OF FACTS STRAIGHT.

IN THE CASE OF ALUMINUM, 70% OF AMERICAN ALUMINUM CONSUMPTION IS FROM CANADA, AND QUITE FRANKLY, THEY CANNOT BUILD ALUMINUM CAPABILITIES THAT WILL BE COST-EFFECTIVE.

WE HAVE THE ADVANTAGE OF HAVING --WE PRODUCE, WE'RE ONE OF THE LARGEST PRODUCERS OF POTASH IN THE WORLD.

WE PROVIDE CLOSE TO 90% OF THE POTASH USED IN THE UNITED STATES, WHICH ALLOWS THEM TO GROW CROPS.

THEY NEED THOSE COMMODITIES.

OUR TOURISM INDUSTRY, IN THE CASE OF CANADA, DIRTY 1% OF THE TOURISTS COMING INTO THE UNITED STATES ARE CANADIANS.

WE'VE GOT A MASSIVE BUSINESS WITH THE UNITED STATES.

WE HAVE 300,000 PEOPLE A DAY ACROSS THE BORDER.

WE HAVE 1000 NURSES FROM WINDSOR IMPERIAL ALONE GO TO DETROIT TO TREAT THE SICK AND THE DYING IN THE HOSPITALS IN DETROIT.

SO HE IS MINIMIZING AND TRIVIALIZING A RELATIONSHIP FOR 100 YEARS WAS REALLY A, A, A ROLE MODEL FOR THE WORLD.

A NON-DEFENDED BORDER OF 8000 KILOMETERS AND PEACEFUL COEXISTENCE, AND A RELATIONSHIP OF MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL TRADE.

AND I THINK THAT WE HAVE TO SET OUR RECORD STRAIGHT, NOT JUST WITH THE PRESIDENT, THAT WITH THIS CABINET, AND ALSO WITH THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES, WITH THE MEDIA OF THE UNITED STATES, AND THE CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES.

AND, BY THE WAY, THE PUBLIC OF THE UNITED STATES ARE LARGELY ON OUR SIDE.

IN A RECENT POLL, ONLY 13% FELT COMFORTABLE WITH THE PRESIDENT TALKING ABOUT ANNEXING CANADA.

AND, AS YOU KNOW, THE MARGIN OF ERROR ON THAT, THERE'S PROBABLY MORE PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN ALIENS THAN 13%.

AND, IN TERMS OF A TRADE RELATIONSHIP AND A TARIFF RELATIONSHIP WITH CANADA, 75% OF AMERICANS SAY WE SHOULD NOT HAVE TARIFFS UP AGAINST OUR BEST FRIEND AND ALLY, CANADA.

SO I THINK THAT WE HAVE A LOT SUPPORT WITH THE AMERICAN PEOPLE IN TERMS OF THIS RELATIONSHIP.

AND ALL WE WANT AS CANADIANS IS TO HAVE IT BACK RESTORED AGAIN.

WE DO NOT WANT TO BE FIGHTING WITH AMERICANS.

WE DO NOT WANT TO BE BULLYING OUR NATIONAL ANTHEMS.

WE DO NOT WANT TO BE BOYCOTTING THEIR GOODS AND AVOIDING TRAVEL TO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

THAT IS NOT WHAT WE WANT.

BUT WE DID NOT CHOOSE TO SPITE, AND MAKE NO MISTAKE, WE ARE PREPARED TO FIGHT BACK AGGRESSIVELY AND NOT CAPITULATE IF, IF THE PRESIDENT INSISTS ON CARRYING ON THE FIGHT.

>> I MEAN, IT'S INTERESTING.

THE PRESIDENT OPEN UP THE PRESS CONFERENCE BY SAYING THAT THE TOP CONFESSION THAT HE WANTS FROM CANADA IS FRIENDSHIP, AND HE CLOSED BY SAYING THERE'S NOTHING CANADA CAN DO TO LIFT THESE TARIFFS.

BUT THE, THE PRESIDENT DOES HAVE A POINT IN TERMS OF MORE DAMAGE WOULD BE INFLICTED UPON CANADA THAN THE UNITED STATES IF THESE TARIFFS AT THESE LEVELS GOING TO PLACE AND FOR NO OTHER REASON THAT ABOUT THREE QUARTERS OF CANADA'S EXPORTS DO GO TO THE UNITED STATES, AND ECONOMIC MODELS SUGGEST THAT A MAJOR TRADE SHOCK LIKE THIS COULD REDUCE CANADA'S GDP BY 3% TO SIX PERCENTAGE POINTS.

THE PRIME MINISTER INHERITED AN ALREADY QUITE UNSTABLE ECONOMY.

A LOT OF FRUSTRATION ABOUT THE COST OF LIVING IN HOUSING IN PARTICULAR, AND INFLATION CONTINUES TO BE A MENACE.

HOW MUCH LEEWAY WILL CANADIAN VOTERS GIVE HIM BEFORE THEY START PUTTING MORE PRESSURE ON HIM TO MAYBE EVEN CAPITULATE WITH THE U. S. ?

>> A LOT.

IT'S ONE OF OUR FORMER PRIME MINISTER'S SIDE, CANADA AND CANADIANS HAVE TO BE PREPARED TO TAKE ANY AMOUNT OF PAIN IN ORDER TO PROTECT OUR SOVEREIGNTY.

AND THERE'S ONE THING THE PRESIDENT, I DON'T THINK, UNDERSTANDS.

IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT DOLLARS AND CENTS.

IT'S ABOUT MORE THAN THAT.

IT'S ABOUT WHAT DEGREE OF PAIN THE RESPECTIVE PARTIES ARE PREPARED TO TAKE.

WE HAVE AN OLD SAYING THAT IT'S NOT THE DOG IN THE FIGHT, IT'S THE FIGHT IN THE DOG, AND THERE'S A LOT OF FIGHT IN THIS DOG.

CANADIANS PAIN THRESHOLD ON THIS IS EXTRAORDINARILY HIGH, AND THE THRESHOLD OF AMERICANS IN TERMS OF PAIN ON THIS IS EXTRAORDINARILY LOW.

AND, AND FOR THAT REASON, WE ARE GOING TO END UP WINNING THIS FIGHT.

>> YEAH, WELL, YOU ARE RIGHT TO POINT OUT NEITHER THE MAJORITY OF AMERICAN CANADIANS WANT A FIGHT AT ALL.

FRANK McKENNA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> TENSIONS ARE HIGH BETWEEN INDIA AND PAKISTAN, WITH MULTIPLE MAJOR AIRLINES AVOIDING FLYING OVER PAKISTAN UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE.

THIS COMMENTS TWO WEEKS AFTER MILITANTS MASSACRED 26 CIVILIANS IN INDIAN ADMINISTERED KASHMIR.

IT'S A REGION THAT'S BEEN GREATLY DISPUTED BETWEEN THESE TWO NEIGHBORS SINCE THE PARTITION OF INDIA IN 1947.

BOTH COUNTRIES ARE NOW FLEXING THEIR MILITARY MUSCLES, WITH SOME ESCA A -FOR-TAT MOVES.

NICK ROBERTSON HAS BEEN ON THE GROUND IN THE PAKISTANI CONTROL SIDE OF KASHMIR.

>> Reporter: HIGH IN THE HIMALAYAS, PAKISTAN'S ARMY IS TAKING US DEEP INTO DISPUTED KASHMIR, TOWARD THE LINE OF CONTROL, THE DE FACTO BORDER WITH INDIA.

AND ONE OF THE MOST MILITARIZED CONFLICTS IN THE WORLD.

TENSIONS BETWEEN THE TWO NUCLEAR ARMED NEIGHBORS RISING SINCE A TERROR ATTACK KILLED 26 CIVILIANS, MOSTLY INDIAN, ALMOST TWO WEEKS AGO.

MILITARIES ON BOTH SIDES READYING FOR POSSIBLE ESCALATION AS INDIA BLAMED PAKISTAN, AND PAKISTAN DENIED RESPONSIBILITY.

IT'S A WAR OF WORDS.

CIVILIANS ON BOTH SIDES OF THESE RUGGED MOUNTAINS FEAR, NOT FOR THE FIRST TIME, WILL BE VICTIMS OF EVENTS LADY ON THEIR SWAY.

CONTROL OF THE TOWERING PEAKS UNRESOLVED FOR 75 YEARS.

JUST DRIVING THROUGH THE MOUNTAINS HERE, IT'S EASY TO UNDERSTAND WHY KASHMIR IS STILL A DISPUTED AREA.

IT'S SO HARD TO FIGHT A DECISIVE WAR IN THIS RUGGED TERRAIN.

THE OTHER THING YOU SEE HERE IS POVERTY.

MEAGER VILLAGES CLINGING TO THE HILLSIDE.

PEOPLE HERE SAY THE SPIKING PENSION MAKING IT HARDER TO EKE A LIVING, AS WE'RE ABOUT TO FIND OUT.

ON FOOT NOW, THE VILLAGE WE'RE HEADING TO A FEW HUNDRED FEET FROM THE LINE OF CONTROL.

AND JUST LOOK OVER THERE.

YOU CAN SEE HOW CLOSE THE FRONT LINES ARE.

THAT'S THE LAST PAKISTANI POSITION THERE.

THE INDIAN ARMY POSITIONED A FEW HUNDRED METERS AWAY.

AND THOSE TREES?

THAT'S THE LINE OF CONTROL.

WHEN WE ARRIVED, MOST VILLAGES CLUSTERED AROUND ONE HOUSE, SOME HIDING IN THE DARK INSIDE.

CHILDREN PEEKING FROM UNGLAZED WINDOWS.

THIS VILLAGER TELLING US THEY LIVE IN FEAR NOW.

ELDERLY, CHILDREN, AND WOMEN ARE INCREDIBLY SCARED, HE SAYS.

WE WANT TO TAKE OUR LIVESTOCK OUT TO PASTURE, BUT THE INDIANS ARE RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF US, AND WE'RE VERY CONCERNED.

THEIR FEARS MAY BE WELL- FOUNDED.

THIS 17-YEAR-OLD SAYS INDIAN TROOPS KILLED HIS FATHER, MALIK FAROUQ.

HE HAD GONE TO THE LINE OF CONTROL TO CHASE OFF CATTLE, HE SAYS.

THE INDIANS SHOT HIM AND ACCUSED HIM OF BEING A TERRORIST.

HE IS NOT.

HE IS A GOOD MAN.

THE DAY AFTER THE MASSACRE IN INDIAN ADMINISTERED KASHMIR, THE INDIAN GOVERNMENT ANNOUNCED IT HAD FOILED A TERROR PLOT, KILLING TWO PAKISTANIS.

MALIK'S BROTHER DENIES THE ALLEGATIONS TOO, SAYS HE WAS JUST A HERDER, LIKE ME.

BELIEVES INDIA WANTS THEIR LAND, BEFORE BREAKING DOWN IN TEARS.

>> IT'S OKAY, IT'S OKAY.

IT'S OKAY.

IT'S OKAY.

>> INDIA'S DENIGRATE CRUELTY TO US, HE SAYS.

IF THEY WANT ME TO LEAVE, PUT A BULLET IN MY HEAD.

THAT'S THE ONLY WAY I'LL GO.

WITH NO END IN SIGHT ON BOTH SIDES OF THE BORDER, CIVILIANS, AS EVER, THE LOSERS IN THIS DECADES-OLD CONFLICT.

>> NICK ROBERTSON REPORTING THERE FROM KASHMIR.

WITH THIS DECADE-LONG CONFLICT KNOWING NO SIGNS OF RESOLUTION, THERE'S NO SHORTAGE OF GRIEVANCES AND ACCUSATIONS BEING LEVIED ON BOTH SIDES OF THE BORDER.

OFFICIALS IN INDIA HAVE LONG ACCUSED PAKISTAN OF BACKING ON GROUPS AND SEPARATIST FORCES INSIDE THE INDIAN ADMINISTERED PORTION OF KASHMIR.

PAKISTAN SAYS THIS WAS TRUE IN THE PAST, BUT IS NOT HAPPENING NOW.

WITH THE KILLINGS OF 26 CIVILIANS STILL FRESH IN THE MINDS OF MANY ACROSS THE BORDER, AND CALLS FOR REVENGE, IT'S NO SURPRISE THAT GLOBAL POWERS, INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA, HAD STEPPED IN TO URGE RESTRAINT IN THIS TENSE STANDOFF.

>> AND FOR MORE ANALYSIS ON THE POLITICAL SITUATION BETWEEN INDIA AND PAKISTAN, I SPOKE TO MAJEED MICHELLE, THE NEW YORK TIMES SOUTH ASIA BUREAU CHIEF.

CHIEF, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

SO THIS LATEST STANDOFF BETWEEN INDIA AND PAKISTAN COMES IN THE WAKE OF A TOURIST MASSACRE IN THE INDIAN ADMINISTERED PART OF KASHMIR.

TELL US EXACTLY WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT THIS ATTACK.

>> WELL, JUST TO SET THE CONTEXT, THE INDIAN GOVERNMENT, FOR A COUPLE YEARS NOW, ARE SAYING THAT KASHMIR HAS BECOME A SAFE PLACE, AND ENCOURAGED A LOT OF TOURISM INTO ITS PART OF KASHMIR.

AND IN ANY SORT OF A SCENIC, VERY BEAUTIFUL PART OF THE VALLEY, PEOPLE ARE PICNICKING, AND THEN GUN THEN SORT OF APPEAR FROM THE WOODS AND COMMIT A MASSACRE.

IT'S, IT'S PROBABLY THE MOST HORRIFIC TERROR ATTACK THAT HAS HAPPENED IN INDIA IN RECENT DECADES.

26 CIVILIANS, ALL OF THEM CIVILIANS, WERE KILLED.

25 OF THEM WERE HINDUS, AND WE HAVE ACCOUNTS OF SURVIVORS WHO SAID THE MEN WERE SINGLED OUT FOR THEIR RELIGION, SO THIS WAS CLEARLY A HORRIFIC ATTACK, BUT IT WAS ALSO MEANT TO SEND A MESSAGE.

>> AND THIS WAS THE DEADLIEST ATTACK IN THE REGION SINCE 2019, WHEN ABOUT 40 INDIAN POLICEMEN WERE MURDERED.

WHAT DISTINGUISHES THIS RECENT ESCALATION FROM 2019?

>> I THINK THE MAIN THING IS JUST THE VICTIMS, AND THE NATURE OF THE ATTACK.

THE 2019 ONE WAS A, SORT OF AN ATTACK ON SECURITY FORCES.

THIS ONE WAS AN ENTIRELY CIVILIAN AREA, AND ALL THE VICTIMS WERE CIVILIAN.

THERE WAS NO MILITARY TARGETS AROUND.

AND JUST THE NATURE OF SINGLING OUT PEOPLE FOR THEIR RELIGION, AND THEN MURDERING PEOPLE IN FRONT OF THEIR FAMILIES, IN FRONT OF THEIR WIVES AND CHILDREN.

I THINK JUST THE SHEER BRUTALITY OF THE ATTACKS.

>> SO OBVIOUSLY THE WORLD IS WATCHING TO SEE HOW AND WHEN THIS WILL ESCALATE.

THUS FAR, INDIAN TROOPS HAVE BEEN EXCHANGING SMALL ARMS FIRE WITH PAKISTANI TROOPS ACROSS THE DISPUTED BORDER.

INDIA'S NAVY HAS BEEN CONDUCTING A NUMBER OF LONG- RANGE MISSILE DRILLS.

BUT THUS FAR, INDIA'S RESPONSE HAS MOSTLY BEEN ON THE ECONOMIC AND DIPLOMATIC FRONT.

DO WE EXPECT TO SEE A MILITARY RESPONSE IMMINENTLY?

>> ALL INDICATIONS ARE THAT THERE WILL BE A MILITARY RESPONSE.

SO FAR, THE INDIAN GOVERNMENT HAS BOUGHT ITSELF TIME BY, AS YOU SAID, SORT OF ANNOUNCING NONMILITARY PUNISHING MEASURES AGAINST PAKISTAN, SORT OF DISRUPTING, THREATENING TO DISRUPT THE FLOW OF RIVERS AND PAKISTAN'S IRRIGATION SYSTEM IS HEAVILY DEPENDENT ON, EXPELLING PAKISTANI CITIZENS FROM INDIA.

BUT PUBLICLY, INDIAN OFFICIALS, INCLUDING PRIME MINISTER MODI, HAS SIGNALED THAT THERE WILL BE A MILITARY RETALIATION AS WELL.

THE PRIME MINISTER'S TALKED ABOUT SORT OF RAISING TARIFF SAFE HAVENS, AND HIS OFFICIALS HAVE CONTINUED THAT RHETORIC.

IT'S BEEN TWO WEEKS SINCE THE ATTACK.

THERE IS STILL A LOT OF PUBLIC ANGER, SO THE ANALYSTS AND, AND OFFICIALS WE SPEAK TO, THEY SAY THE LIKELIHOOD OF SOME SORT OF MILITARY STRIKE AGAINST PAKISTAN, IT MAY BE A LIMITED STRIKE, BUT SOME SORT OF A STRIKE, THE LIKELIHOOD OF THAT IS VERY HIGH.

>> YEAH, AND WE SHOULD NOTE THAT INDIAN HAS EXPELLED PAKULA --AND ALL PAKISTANI CITIZENS, SO THERE WERE NOT MANY IN INDIA AT THE TIME.

IT CLOSED, AS YOU NOTED, THE ONLY LAND BORDER CROSSING AND SUSPENDED THE RIVER SHARING TREATY THAT GOES BACK TO 1960.

FOR THE MOST PART, PAKISTAN RESPONDED IN KIND, BUT THERE IS GROWING PRESSURE ON PRIME MINISTER MODI FOR A MORE FORCEFUL RESPONSE.

HE HAS VOWED TO DO AS MUCH, AND NOT ONLY STATING THAT, BUT STATING IT IN ENGLISH, WHICH HE RARELY SPEAKS, IN ADDRESSING THE PUBLIC.

THE MAJORITY OF THE TIME HE SPEAKS IN HINDI.

HERE'S WHAT HE SAID.

>> NOW, FOLLOWING THE 2019 ATTACK, INDIA CONDUCTED AIRSTRIKES ON MILITANT TARGETS.

THIS IS STILL A MODERNIZING MILITARY THAT HE IS OVERSEEING.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE OPTIONS THAT MODI HAS IN TERMS OF A MILITARY RESPONSE?

>> YEAH, SO I THINK, ON THE ONE HAND, THE PRESIDENT THAT PRIME MINISTER MODI HAS CREATED, THAT EVERY TIME THERE IS A TERROR THREAT IN INDIA, INDIA WILL RESPOND, AND EVERY TIME IT WILL RESPOND MORE FORCEFULLY.

THIS PRESIDENT WAS CREATED IN 2016, AND THEN 2019.

SO THAT MEANS HE HAS NO CHOICE BUT HE HAS LITTLE CHOICE BUT TO RESPOND.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, HE HAS A MILITARY THAT, YOU KNOW, WAS SLIGHTLY EXPOSED WHEN, WHEN IT RETALIATED IN 2019.

ONE OF INDIA'S, YOU KNOW, FIGHTER JETS WAS SHOT DOWN.

IN THE PROCESS OF RETALIATING, THERE WAS ANOTHER MISTAKE WHERE INDIA SHOT ONE OF ITS OWN HELICOPTERS.

SO IN, IN THAT FACE-OFF IN 2019, CONCERNS BECAME VERY PUBLIC ABOUT THE STATE OF THE MILITARY, ESPECIALLY THE AIR FORCE.

SINCE THOSE YEARS, HE HAS, YOU KNOW, POURED BILLIONS OF DOLLARS INTO MODERNIZING THE MILITARY.

BUT IN THE SAME PERIOD, INDIA FACED ANOTHER THREAT.

IT ALMOST WENT TO WAR WITH CHINA.

FOR FOUR YEARS, THE INDIANS AND CHINESE TROOPS WERE IN A FACE- OFF HIGH IN THE HIMALAYAS.

>> GOING BACK TO THE FACT THAT MODI DECIDED TO DELIVER THIS MESSAGE IN ENGLISH , AND HOW RARELY HE DOES ADDRESS AUDIENCES IN ENGLISH, HOW MUCH SHOULD WE READ INTO THAT?

WHAT DOES THAT SIGNIFY?

>> I THINK HE WAS MOSTLY SPEAKING TO THE WORLD.

THE, LISTEN, THIS HORRIFIC ATTACK HAPPENED ON MY SOIL.

I HAVE INFORMATION.

THAT INFORMATION HAS NOT BEEN SHARED PUBLICLY.

THERE IS A PAST PATTERN OF PAKISTAN SUPPORTING, YOU KNOW, TERROR GROUPS ON ITS SOIL AS A PROXY, AND I WILL RETALIATE, AND I HAVE EVERY REASON TO TAKE ACTION.

SO HE WAS CLEARLY SPEAKING TO THE WORLD, AND THE RESPONSE FROM, YOU KNOW, THE MAJORITY OF WORLD POWERS AND SORT OF COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD HAVE BEEN A RESPONSE OF SUPPORT TO INDIA.

SOME HAVE URGED RESTRAINT, BUT, YOU KNOW, INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES AND OTHERS HAVE BASICALLY ALMOST SIGNALED THAT, THAT INDIA IS WITHIN ITS RIGHTS TO, TO, TO HUNT TO PERPETUATE HER AND, YOU KNOW, SO, SO HE WAS SPEAKING TO THE WORLD, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, IT SEEMS LIKE HE'S GETTING THE GREEN LIGHT FROM A LOT OF THE COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD AS WELL.

>> RIGHT, AND THE U. S. HAS HISTORICALLY PLAYED A DOMINANT ROLE IN MEDIATION BETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIES.

WE KNOW THE PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP IS RATHER STRONG BETWEEN PRESIDENT TRUMP AND MODI, THOUGH TRUMP HAS NOT EXPRESSED MUCH DETAIL IN TERMS OF HOW THE U. S. FEELS ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR INCIDENT RIGHT NOW.

WHAT ROLE, IF ANY, IS INDIA HOPING THE UNITED STATES PLAYS HERE?

>> AMONG THE FIRST IS THAT PRIME MINISTER MODI SPOKE TO AFTER THE HORRIFIC ATTACK WAS PRESIDENT TRUMP.

SORT OF A SIGN OF THE CLOSENESS BETWEEN THESE TWO COUNTRIES.

IN THE PAST, AT LEAST, THE U. S. HAS ENJOYED A CLOSE RELATIONSHIP WITH PAKISTAN AS WELL.

IT'S JUST THAT THIS ATTACK HAPPENS IN A MOMENT WHERE THE ALLIANCES IN THIS REGION ARE VERY DRAMATICALLY SHIFTING.

IF WE GO BACK TO SORT OF THE COLD WAR ERA, EVEN MORE RECENTLY, THE 20 YEARS THAT THE U. S. WAS, YOU KNOW, AT WAR IN AFGHANISTAN, FOR ALL THOSE DECADES, PAKISTAN WAS CENTRAL SORT OF FRONT-LINE ALLY IN THIS REGION.

BUT WITH THOSE TWO REASONS OVER, PAKISTAN IS STRUGGLING TO FIND SORT OF MUCH RELEVANCE IN THE U. S. CALCULATION.

THAT RELATIONSHIP IS DIMINISHING.

THERE ISN'T MUCH WEAPONS SUPPLIED GOING TO PAKISTAN ANYMORE.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THE INDIA- U. S. RELATIONSHIP HAS BEEN GROWING PRETTY RAPIDLY.

THIS HAS BECOME A VERY, VERY CENTRAL RELATIONSHIP FOR WASHINGTON, PARTICULARLY AS A COUNTERWEIGHT TO CHINA.

SO IN THIS SPACE, THE, THE, THE RELATIONSHIPS IN THE REGION ARE CHANGING.

CHINA IS SORT OF STANDING WITH PAKISTAN, THE U. S. IS STANDING WITH INDIA, AND, AND IT'S KIND OF A, A NEW, A NEW REALITY, NEW DYNAMICS IN THIS REGION.

>> YEAH, AND WE SHOULD NOTE IRAN'S FOREIGN MINISTER ALSO RECENTLY VISITED ISLAMABAD AS WELL, SO YOU'RE RIGHT, THE SHIFTING INTERNATIONAL DYNAMICS HERE IN TERMS OF ALLIANCES.

WE WILL CONTINUE TO CLOSELY WATCH THIS DEVELOPING STORY WITH YOU, MICHELE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE TIME.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> NEXT, TO A CRISIS TAKING PLACE IN OUR OCEANS.

THE SEA MAKES UP SOME 70% OF OUR PLANET, AND IT'S FACING A CATASTROPHE THAT WILL IMPACT ALL LIFE ON EARTH.

WITH THE RISING TEMPERATURES, A RISING SEA LEVELS, AND A RISE IN POLLUTION, IT'S SO CONCERNING THAT IT'S THE FOCUS OF A NEW WORK BY ACCLAIMED JOURNALIST DAVID ATTENBOROUGH AS HE TURNS 99.

HE'S RELEASING A VITAL DOCUMENTARY CALLED OCEAN.

>> WE HAVE DRAINED THE LIFE FROM OUR OCEAN.

I WOULD FIND IT HARD NOT TO LOSE HOPE.

WERE IT NOT FOR THE MOST REMARKABLE DISCOVERY.

>> IT WAS BEYOND OUR WILDEST DREAMS.

>> IF WE SAVE THE CITY, WE SAVE OUR WORLD.

>> IN 2018, CHRISTIANE SPOKE TO PIONEERING OCEANOGRAPHER SYLVIA EARLE, WHO SPENT HER DECADES RESTRICTING LIFE BENEATH THE WAVES.

AND SHE RAISED HER CONCERN ABOUT THE TERRIFYING IMPACT OF PLASTICS.

HERE'S THEIR CONVERSATION.

>> SYLVIA EARLE, COME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> WELL, IT'S WONDERFUL TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT THIS REALLY IMPORTANT ISSUE, PLASTICS.

AND YOU HAVE BEEN BITING.

LET ME JUST GET THE PRECISE NUMBER OF HOURS.

7000 HOURS UNDERWATER OVER THE 65 YEARS YOU'VE BEEN DIVING.

IT IS INCREDIBLE TO THINK THAT.

SO ALL OF THIS EXPLORATION, PLUS THE FANTASTIC PICTURES, PLUS, AS WE KNOW, DAVID ATTENBOROUGH AND THE BLUE PLANET, PHENOMENAL, RIGHT?

HE HAS BEEN CREDITED WITH REALLY BOOSTING AWARENESS OF THE DANGERS TO OUR OCEANS, AND PARTICULARLY THE PLASTICS.

WOULD YOU SAY THAT PLASTICS ARE THE BIGGEST DANGER RIGHT NOW?

>> THEY'RE A GREAT THREAT.

OR, ACTUALLY, TWO CATEGORIES.

WHAT WE'RE PUTTING INTO THE OCEAN IS ONE OF THOSE CATEGORIES, AND IT'S EXCESS CARBON DIOXIDE FROM BURNING FOSSIL FUELS THAT IS NOT ONLY WARMING THE PLANET, BUT IT IS CAUSING THE OCEAN TO BECOME MORE ACIDIC, SO IT'S ALL THE TRASH, ALL THE TOXINS, THE THINGS THAT WE ALLOWED TO FLOW INTO THE SEA, AND THE DELIBERATE TRASH.

>> WELL, WE'VE SEEN SOME, SOME TRASH AND, AND THE LIKE OVER HERE.

WE KNOW THAT CNN DID A WONDERFUL DOCUMENTARY AT MIDWAY ISLAND, PLASTIC ISLAND, WHICH IS JUST SHOCKING TO SAY.

>> THOSE POOR ALBATROSSES JUST ACHING NESTS OUT OF PLASTIC FISHING NET.

>> AND BEING CUT OPEN , AND UMPTEEN AMOUNTS OF PLASTIC COMING OUT.

BUT SOMETHING THAT REALLY SHOCKED ME WAS THE SPERM WHALE THAT WASHED UP ON A BEACH IN SPAIN LAST WEEK AND HAD, LISTEN TO THIS, 64 POUNDS OF PLASTIC AND WASTE IN ITS STOMACH.

I MEAN, ROPES THE PIECES OF NET, OTHER DEBRIS LODGED IN ITS STOMACH.

I MEAN, THIS IS THE WHALE HERE.

I MEAN, HERE WE HAVE ALL THE STUFF THAT THE SCIENTISTS HAVE TAKEN OUT.

IT'S JUST, IT'S AWFUL.

>> IT SHOULD CAUSE PEOPLE TO JUST SIT UP AND TAKE NOTICE AND REALIZE THERE'S NO WAY ON EARTH THAT WE, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU THINK OF THE PLASTICS, THEY DON'T GO AWAY.

THEY SOMETIMES BREAK INTO SMALLER PIECES, BUT THEY'RE VERY DURABLE.

MICRO PLASTICS ARE NOW AN INCREASING PROBLEM.

>> SO TELL ME ABOUT THAT A LITTLE BIT, BECAUSE I THINK PEOPLE START TO BECOME AWARE WHEN THEY SEE THINGS LIKE THIS, MOUNTAINS AND MOUNTAINS OF RUBBISH AND PLASTIC.

TELL ME THE STORY OF PLASTIC.

IT'S OUR DISPOSABLE SOCIETY, RIGHT?

EVERYBODY'S GOT A -- >> WORKING.

IT'S MARKETING.

HUMANKIND GOT ALONG PERFECTLY WELL WITHOUT SINGLE USE PLASTICS UNTIL WE STARTED TO GET INTO THAT HABIT.

AND IT WASN'T TILL THE MIDDLE OF THE 20th CENTURY WHEN I BEGAN DIVING, AND WHEN I WAS A CHILD, WE DIDN'T NEED, BECAUSE IT DIDN'T EXIST, PLASTICS, BUT THEY'VE BECOME REMARKABLY USEFUL.

PLASTICS ARE REALLY NOT A BIG PROBLEM.

IT'S WHAT WE DO WITH THEM, AND THE WAY THAT MANY PLASTICS ARE CREATED TO BE THROWN AWAY.

USE IT ONCE, TOSS IT, AS IF THERE IS SOMEPLACE THAT IT GOES.

IT DOES.

IT GOES INTO THE OCEAN, LARGELY.

>> THIS IS THE ALBATROSS THAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE.

I MEAN, IT IS REALLY JUST A TRAGIC THING.

>> THAT BIRD NEVER GOT TO FLY.

THIS LOOKS LIKE A YOUNG ONE.

>> OH MY GOD.

I MEAN, HOW DO THEY EVEN PUT THAT STUFF IN THEIR MOUTHS?

IT'S HUGE.

>> WELL, MOMS AND DADS COME BACK THINKING THAT THEY ARE GIVING THEM SUSTENANCE, AND OFTEN THEY DO HAVE FISH EGGS OR OTHER THINGS GROWING ON THEM, BUT, IN ALL INNOCENCE, WITH THE BEST OF INTENTIONS, THEY STUFF THEIR BABIES WITH THESE COLORFUL PIECES.

WELL, THERE'S ANOTHER THING.

THERE ARE FEWER SQUID, FEWER SMALL FISH IN THE OCEAN TO FEED THEIR LITTLE ONES.

AND THAT'S PART OF THE PROBLEM.

WHAT WE'RE TAKING OUT, WE'VE TAKEN ON THE ORDER OF 90% OF THE SHARKS, THE BIG TUNAS.

>> WELL, SO, AS OF 2014, MORE THAN 5 TRILLION PIECES OF PLASTIC.

COLLECTIVELY THEY WAY SOMETHING LIKE 269,000 TONS, WERE FLOATING IN THE WORLD OCEANS.

AS OF 2010, 8 MILLION METRIC TONS OF PLASTIC ENTERING THE OCEANS ANNUALLY.

SO, I MEAN, LOOK.

WE'RE DESCRIBING A CATASTROPHIC PROBLEM.

AM I CORRECT?

IS IT CATASTROPHIC?

>> IT IS CATASTROPHIC, BUT IT'S NOT THE ONLY PROBLEM.

IT IS MATCHED BY WHAT WE ARE TAKING OUT.

>> RIGHT.

>> IT IS MATCHED BY THE CHANGE IN CHEMISTRY OF THE OCEAN.

BUT THE WORST PROBLEM OF ALL, I'M SO GLAD WE'RE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION.

IT IS IGNORANCE.

PEOPLE EITHER DON'T KNOW THE MAGNITUDE OF WHAT'S GOING ON, OR THEY DON'T KNOW WHY THEY SHOULD CARE.

SO WE LOSE THE WHALES.

SO THERE'S A LOT OF JUNK IN THE OCEAN.

SO WHAT?

PEOPLE THINK, OR DON'T THINK, ABOUT THE REAL REASON THEY SHOULD BE CONCERNED, AND THAT IS THAT THE OCEAN DRIVES CLIMATE AND WEATHER.

THE OCEAN IS THE BASIS OF EARTH'S LIFE SUPPORT.

IT'S WHERE MOST OF THE OXYGEN IS GENERATED.

TREES AND GRASS AND FERNS, ALL OF THAT, PHOTOSYNTHESIS HELPS, BUT THE HEAVY LIFTING IS DONE BY THE SMALL CREATURES IN THE OCEAN.

THEY'RE NOW GETTING CLOGGED WITH ALL THE BITS OF PLASTIC IN THE OCEAN TOO, AND THE CREATURES THAT FEED ON THOSE MICROORGANISMS ARE NOW FEEDING ON A LOT OF PLASTIC AS WELL.

SO IF YOU LOOK INSIDE A LITTLE FISH OR A JELLYFISH, THAT TAKES UP SOME OF THESE SMALL BITS, IT'S BECOME PART OF THE FOOD CHAIN IN THAT WAY.

>> YOU'VE BEEN DOING THIS, AS I SAID IN THE BEGINNING, FOR ABOUT FIVE YEARS.

YOU'VE BEEN DIVING.

HOW WAS IT FOR A WOMAN TO DO THE HEAVY LIFTING, YOU KNOW, OVER THESE YEARS?

WAS IT, DID YOU ENCOUNTER SORT OF PREJUDICE, SEXISM OR ANYTHING, EVEN UNDERWATER?

>> WELL, IT'S STILL GOING ON, OF COURSE, BUT IT'S BETTER TODAY THAN IT WAS IN TERMS OF BEING ACCEPTED.

AS A SCIENTIST, OR AS A PROFESSIONAL, I REALLY HAVE ALWAYS FELT THAT I'M DOING WHAT I'M DOING BECAUSE OF WHAT I LOVE.

IT'S EXPLORATION, RESEARCH, CARING FOR THE WORLD.

>> IS A BEAUTIFUL PICTURE OF YOU THERE.

>> YES.

I TOOK MY CHILDREN TO MEET THAT DOLPHIN IN THE BAHAMAS AT A SCHOOL.

WE WENT TO THE BIG BLUE SCHOOL.

WELL, IT WAS FASCINATING TO COME ALONG AT A TIME WHEN IT WAS UNEXPECTED FOR WOMEN, YOU KNOW, TO BE DOING CERTAIN THINGS AND CERTAIN PLACES.

AND I, IN 1964, AS A SCIENTIST, WAS INVITED TO GO ON AN EXPEDITION OUT OF THE COUNTRY, FIRST TIME I'D BEEN OUT OF THE UNITED STATES, I WENT TO THE INDIAN OCEAN FOR SIX WEEKS ON A SHIP.

AND I WAS THE ONLY WOMAN.

AND THERE WERE 70 MEN.

>> 70 TO ONE.

>> YEAH.

AND THE HEADLINE READ, SYLVIA SAILED AWAY WITH 70 MEN, BUT SHE EXPECTS NO PROBLEMS.

>> YOU ARE IN YOUR 80s NOW.

>> YEAH.

>> YOU DON'T LOOK AT, AND YOU'RE STILL DIVING.

>> LAST WEEK IN INDONESIA.

IT'S GREAT.

AS LONG AS YOU'RE BREATHING, YOU CAN BE DIVING.

>> SYLVIA EARLE, THANKS FOR BEING WITH US.

>> DIVING IN HER 80s.

INCREDIBLE.

> >> WELL, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S CLIMATE AND CIVIL RIGHTS ROLLBACKS ARE ONLY MAKING LIFE HARDER FOR ENVIRONMENTAL ACTIVISTS.

LIKE OUR NEXT GUEST, WHO SPENT YEARS LEADING THE CHARGE FOR A LANDMARK SETTLEMENT TO ADDRESS THE SEWAGE CRISIS CRIPPLING RURAL COMMUNITIES IN ALABAMA.

ONLY FOR THE AGREEMENT TO BE KILLED LAST MONTH.

BUT CATHERINE COLEMAN FLOWERS ISN'T GIVING UP.

SHE JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS HER NEW BOOK, HOLY GROUND, AND THE FIGHT FOR ENVIRONMENTAL JUSTICE IN AMERICA.

>> THANKS.

CATHERINE COLEMAN FLOWERS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> CAN I JUST START WITH LEARNING A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOU?

YOU KNOW, ENVIRONMENTAL ACTIVIST, CLIMATE ACTIVIST.

YOU'VE BEEN A HIGH SCHOOL TEACHER.

YOU WERE IN THE AIR FORCE AT ONE POINT.

HOW, HOW WOULD YOU SAY YOU GOT STARTED AS A, I DON'T KNOW, I DON'T EVEN WANT TO SAY AN ENVIRONMENTAL ACTIVIST.

YOU ACTUALLY STARTED WHEN YOU WENT HOME TO ALABAMA, AND YOU WERE WORKING ON SANITATION, RIGHT?

>> YES, BUT MY, I THINK MY DEVELOPMENT IS ENVIRONMENTAL ACTIVIST LONG BEFORE THEN, YOU KNOW?

IT WAS GROWING UP IN MILES COUNTY, ALABAMA.

GROWING UP AS A COUNTRY GIRL.

BYE, I THINK THAT ANYONE THAT GREW UP IN A RURAL COMMUNITY IS AN ENVIRONMENTAL ACTIVIST.

YOU'RE AN ENVIRONMENTALIST.

YOU HAD TO LEARN HOW TO LIVE WITH THE LAND.

YOU HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO DEAL WITH THE CHANGING WEATHER, ALL OF THOSE THINGS, WHAT THE GROWING SEASON IS, ALL OF THAT.

I JUST REMEMBER IN MY BOOK WASTE, MY EARLIER BOOK, I TALKED ABOUT THAT, AND I TALKED ABOUT THE ALMANAC THAT PEOPLE USE TO KIND OF PREDICT SOMETHING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE GROWING SEASON, WHEN THE PLANT SEEDS AND ALL OF THAT.

AND I GREW UP WALKING AMONG CORNFIELDS, AND EVEN NOW, I STILL PAY ATTENTION TO WHETHER OR NOT I'M IN AN AREA WHERE I SEE A LOT OF VEGETATION, AND I DON'T SEE BUGS, AND I DON'T BUTTERFLIES.

THAT, I QUESTION THAT, YOU KNOW?

WHY ARE THERE BIRDS HERE?

IN PLACES WHERE THERE ARE LOTS OF TREES.

SO THAT WAS MY COMING-OF-AGE, AND I THINK THAT THE ENVIRONMENTAL, THE ACTIVISM PART ON THE ENVIRONMENTAL SIDE HAPPENED LATER AFTER I BECAME A TEACHER, MOVED BACK TO LOWNDES COUNTY AND THE MONTGOMERY AREA, AND FOUND OUT THAT THERE'S A CONNECTION BETWEEN ALL OF THIS.

>> ONE OF THE OTHER REASONS THAT YOU'VE COME TO PUBLIC ATTENTION IS YOU HAVE BEEN CALLING ATTENTION TO IS THE FACT THAT WHERE THERE ARE KIND OF MUNICIPAL SYSTEMS, OFTEN THEY ARE PLACED IN COMMUNITIES OF COLOR.

AND THAT THERE ARE HEALTH EFFECTS FOR THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE NEARBY THAT SOMETIMES ARE NOT ACCOUNTED FOR.

OR THEY'RE NOT MAINTAINED AS WELL AS THEY COULD AND SHOULD BE, AND THEN THERE ARE HEALTH EFFECTS.

OR WHEN YOU HAVE EXTREME WEATHER EVENTS, AND THE SYSTEMS ARE OVERWHELMED, GUESS WHO ARE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE MOST AFFECTED?

>> LET'S LOOK AT JACKSON, MISSISSIPPI.

WHEN THE WATER PRESSURE, AND I WROTE ABOUT THIS IN MY NEW BOOK, HOLY GROUND.

I HAPPENED TO GO TO JACKSON, MISSISSIPPI JUST PRIOR TO GOING TO THE CONFERENCE OF PARTIES ON CLIMATE CHANGE IN DUBAI.

AND I WAS ABLE TO MAKE A COMPARISON BETWEEN JACKSON, A PLACE WHERE THE MAYOR SAID IS THAT WAY BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF INVESTMENT, OR DISINVESTMENT, AND DUBAI, WHICH IS A, WHICH IS A, A COUNTRY, OR A CITY IN A COUNTRY THAT IS, THAT IS , WATER IS, IS SCARCE, YOU KNOW?

AND, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, BECAUSE OF THE INVESTMENT IN DUBAI, IT'S A WORLD-CLASS CITY.

WHEREAS YOU GO TO JACKSON WHEN THEY HAD THE HOMECOMING WITH DEION SANDERS WAS THE WAS THE COACH OF THE TEAM THERE AT JACKSON STATE, A LOT OF PEOPLE CAME TO HOMECOMING, BECAUSE THE TEAM WAS WINNING.

BUT THE MAYOR WANTED THE RESIDENCE OF THE PRESSURE OF, THE WATER PRESSURE WOULD GO DOWN.

WHEN THE WATER PRESSURE GOES DOWN, THEY CAN'T FLUSH THEIR TOILETS.

PEOPLE DON'T SEE THE CONNECTION THERE.

AND, AND WE ARE TRYING TO SHOW THAT CONNECTION.

AND THE CONNECTION IS, THIS IS A CAPITAL CITY OF THE SOUTHERN STATE THAT IS VERY RED.

HOWEVER, BUT IN THE CAPITAL, THE DISINVESTMENT IS BEING SHOWN UP THROUGH THE, THE LACK OF INVESTMENT IN INFRASTRUCTURE, AND CERTAINLY THE PEOPLE ARE SUFFERING BECAUSE OF THE WATER ISSUES THAT HAVE COME ABOUT BECAUSE OF THAT LACK OF INVESTMENT.

>> YOU'RE FROM ALABAMA, YOU'RE FROM LOWNDES COUNTY.

HAD SOME ADVENTURES.

WENT HOME TO, YOU KNOW, DO YOUR THING.

YOU START WORKING ON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, AND YOU REALIZE, WAIT A MINUTE, BUSINESSES ARE GOING TO COME HERE BECAUSE THE STRUCTURE IS IN THERE.

PEOPLE ARE GOING TO COME WHERE THERE ISN'T, LIKE, CONSISTENT SEWAGE SYSTEMS AND, YOU KNOW, WATER SYSTEMS.

BUT WHEN DID YOU START TO THINK TO YOURSELF, THIS ISN'T JUST A MATTER OF THIS PARTICULAR PLACE AND THIS PARTICULAR TIME, BUT THIS IS KIND OF A BIGGER ISSUE?

>> WHEN OTHER PEOPLE STARTED REACHING OUT TO US AND TELLING US THEY WERE HAVING THE SAME PROBLEM.

THAT'S WHEN WE REALIZED IT WAS A BIGGER ISSUE.

AND WE ALSO DID A HOUSE TO HOUSE SURVEY LOCALLY WHERE WE WENT FROM HOUSE, HOUSE TO HOUSE IN LOWNDES COUNTY, AND WHERE WE THOUGHT PEOPLE WOULD BE RESISTANT, THEY WERE NOT RESISTANT.

THEY STARTED TELLING US, FOR ONE EXAMPLE, THERE'S ONE OF OUR SURVEYORS.

SHE WAS AFRAID TO GO INTO THIS COMMUNITY BECAUSE IT WAS PREDOMINANTLY WHITE, AND SHE WAS AFRAID THAT IF YOU WENT THERE, SHE WOULD NOT BE WELL RECEIVED, SO WHEN SHE WENT THERE, SHE WENT WITH A SHERIFF DEPUTY.

WHEN SHE WENT TO THIS PERSON'S HOUSE AND SHE STARTED TAKING THE SURVEY, HE STARTED CALLING ALL OF HIS NEIGHBORS, BECAUSE THEY WERE HAVING THE SAME PROBLEMS, AND STAYING, YOU NEED TO TALK TO HER.

SO IT IS A PROBLEM, ALTHOUGH RECENTLY IT'S BEEN CHARACTERIZED AS A DDI ISSUE.

IT'S NOT A DDI ISSUE.

WHITE PEOPLE IN LOWNDES COUNTY HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM.

THERE ARE PEOPLE IN ALL 67 COUNTIES IN THE STATE OF ALABAMA HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM.

SO WE'RE HEARING FROM AROUND THE COUNTRY, AND INDEED AROUND THE WORLD, WHERE PEOPLE ARE HAVING THESE SAME ISSUES, AND THAT'S HOW WE REALIZE THAT THIS WAS A MUCH BIGGER PROBLEM THAN JUST WHAT WAS HAPPENING TO POOR PEOPLE IN LOWNDES COUNTY.

THEY WERE THE FIRST ONES TO SPEAK OUT ABOUT IT, BUT THEY WERE NOT THE ONLY ONES THAT ARE DEALING WITH THE ISSUE.

>> AND ONE OF THE POINTS THAT YOU HAVE BEEN MAKING IN RECENT YEARS IS THAT WITH CLIMATE CHANGE, WITH EXTREME WEATHER EVENTS, PEOPLE WHO'VE NEVER HAD TO DEAL WITH THESE ISSUES BEFORE ARE DEALING WITH THEM NOW.

WHY IS THAT?

>> BECAUSE THE WATER TABLES ARE RISING.

THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY.

AND WHEN THEY GET ALL OF THIS RAIN AT ONE TIME, BECAUSE NOW WE'RE HAVING, LIKE, BIG BRAIN, AND RIGHT NOW WE ARE UNDER A EXTREME WEATHER WARNING IN MY AREA.

AND WITH THAT, WILL COME RAIN.

PEOPLE THAT ARE ON SEPTIC SYSTEMS, THAT'S WHEN THEY EXPECT TO HAVE PROBLEMS.

BECAUSE WHEN ALL THIS RAIN COMES DOWN AND THE GROUND GETS SATURATED, THAT'S GOING TO FORCE THEM OF THE GRAVITY FORCES THAT FLOWING BACK INTO THE HOME.

I HAVE EVEN HEARD FROM PEOPLE THAT HAVE NEW HOMES THAT ARE SAYING THE SAME THING.

THE ONE COMMON DENOMINATOR THAT I HEAR A LOT SAID WHEN A LOT OF RAIN COMES DOWN, THEY HAVE A PROBLEM.

THEY WERE ALSO SEEING IN PLACES WHERE PEOPLE HAVE EXPERIENCED SEA LEVEL RISE, LIKE IN FLORIDA.

IT, I WENT TO A CONFERENCE IN FLORIDA, I THOUGHT I WOULD BE THE ONLY ONE TALKING ABOUT FILLING SEPTIC SYSTEMS, AND EVERYBODY THAT SPOKE FOR ME WAS TALKING ABOUT IT AS WELL.

THE MIAMI-DADE COUNTY AREA, THEY BUILT LOTS OF COMMUNITY ON SEPTIC SYSTEMS, AND THEY ARE FILLING IT AS WELL BECAUSE OF SEA LEVEL RISE.

I THINK ANOTHER ISSUE THAT PEOPLE DON'T TALK ABOUT IS SALTWATER INTRUSION.

WHERE SALTWATER IS COMING INTO AREAS IN LOWNDES COUNTY, YOU HAVE TO DIG BELOW 1000 FEET IN SOME AREAS TO GET BELOW SALTWATER.

BUT THAT'S NOT FACTORED INTO THE DESIGN.

SO THE BIG PROBLEM, I BELIEVE, IS THE DESIGN.

THE DESIGNS ARE NOT WORKING PROPERLY.

PEOPLE DESIGNED THEM YEARS AGO.

THEY DON'T WANT TO CHANGE THE DESIGN.

THEY MAKE MONEY OFF OF THEM, BECAUSE ONCE THEY KILL YOU, THEY'LL GO ON PAYMENT OF MONEY TO REPLACE IT WITH ANOTHER DESIGN THAT'S GOING ALSO FAIL, AND WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT.

>> IT DOES SEEM AS THOUGH YOU AND OTHERS LIKE YOU WHO'VE BEEN WORKING WITH YOU HAD BEEN MAKING PROGRESS.

I MEAN, YOU'VE BEEN WORKING FOR YEARS TO EXPOSE THE FACT, AND TO WORK ON THE FACT THAT THERE ARE A NUMBER OF RURAL COMMUNITIES IN ALABAMA WHO STILL LIVE WITH -- IN THEIR YARDS BECAUSE OF INADEQUATE, YOU KNOW, FACILITIES, AND THAT LED TO THIS HISTORIC FEDERAL SETTLEMENT TO FIX THOSE CONDITIONS.

NOW THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAVE THE ROUGHLY TERMINATED THE AGREEMENT.

THE ADMINISTRATION, FOR EXAMPLE, SAID THAT THE ALABAMA WASTEWATER SETTLEMENT WAS AN ILLEGAL DEI POLICY.

WHAT, WHAT DO YOU, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

LIKE, HOW DO YOU, HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT?

>> I THINK THAT IT WAS MISCHARACTERIZED, AND I ALSO HAVE EXTENDED AN INVITATION TO PRESIDENT TRUMP HIMSELF TO COME AND SEE IT FOR HIMSELF.

AND I CAN TAKE HIM TO THE HOMES OF BLACK AND WHITE FAMILIES THAT HAVE RAW SEWAGE ON THE GROUND.

AND I CHALLENGE THEM TO FIX IT.

THAT'S MY RESPONSE TO IT.

AND I THINK THAT THE WAY WE DEAL WITH THIS IS TO KEEP RAISING THESE ISSUES AND LETTING PEOPLE KNOW THAT IT EXISTS, AND WHO IS IMPACTED BY IT, AND HIS IMPACT, AND PEOPLE ARE BEING IMPACTED AROUND THE COUNTRY.

I, EVERYWHERE I GO, PEOPLE COME AND TALK TO ME, WHETHER I'M IN A RED AREA OR BLUE AREA.

USUALLY I'M IN RED AREAS.

THEY COME AND TELL ME ABOUT THE SITUATIONS THAT THEY'RE LIVING IN.

THAT THEY'RE LIVING IN THE SAME, WITH THE SAME ISSUE.

I, IN THE BOOK, I WRITE ABOUT SENATOR TURBERVILLE, AND I HAD TO TESTIFY BEFORE A, A COMMITTEE THAT THE SENATE HAD, SENATOR BOOKERS PEOPLE INVITED ME TO TESTIFY ABOUT THE WASTEWATER PROBLEM, AND THEY WERE LOOKING AT THE FARM BILL AND EXTENDING THE AMOUNT OF MONEY FOR THE FARM BILL TO USE , TO PUT INTO RURAL COMMUNITIES TO ADDRESS THIS ISSUE.

AND WHAT WAS INTERESTING IS THAT MOST OF THE PEOPLE THAT SHOWED UP AT THE HEARING WERE MEMBERS OF THE GOP.

THEY WERE GOP SENATORS.

BECAUSE THEIR AREAS ARE THE ONES IMPACTED BY THIS.

AND THE PERSON WHO WAS LEADING THAT PARTICULAR COMMITTEE ON THE SENATE SIDE, ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE WAS SENATOR TURBERVILLE.

AND HE AND SENATOR BOOKER ACTUALLY WORKED TOGETHER ON TRYING TO INCREASE THOSE FIRMS.

BUT PART OF THE PROBLEM WAS BECAUSE OF THE, THE DIVISIONS, THERE WERE PEOPLE ON THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE THAT REFUSED TO SUPPORT IT BECAUSE OF TURBERVILLE.

I THINK, WHEN WE LOOK AT THESE KINDS OF ISSUES, IT SHOULDN'T BE PARTISAN.

THESE ARE PEOPLE ISSUES.

WE SHOULDN'T THROW THE COMMUNITIES THAT ARE SUFFERING UNDER THE BUS BECAUSE WE DON'T LIKE THE PERSON WHO'S NAME'S ON THE BILL, IF BILL'S A GOOD BILL AND IT GIVES THEM WHAT THEY NEED, YOU KNOW, IN ORDER TO GET OUT OF THOSE SITUATIONS.

AND THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I'VE TRIED TO DO AS WELL.

WHEN I FIRST STARTED DOING THIS WORK, WHEN I WENT INTO LOWNDES COUNTY, MY HOME COUNTY, DOING THIS WORK IN 2002, THE PERSON THAT WENT WITH ME WAS BOB, ROBERT WAS IN.

ROBERT WAS IN IS A CONSERVATIVE BLACK REPUBLICAN.

BUT HE CARED ABOUT HIS COMMUNITY, AND HE STILL CARES ABOUT HIS COMMUNITY.

AND IT DOESN'T MATTER WHETHER THE PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY VOTE DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN.

THEY DON'T NEED TO HAVE RAW SEWAGE ON THE, ON THE GROUND.

THEY ARE AMERICANS, AND SHOULD BE TREATED AS SUCH NO MATTER WHO'S IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

>> MAKES ME WONDER WHETHER, IN HINDSIGHT, THOUGH, DO YOU THINK IT IS A MISTAKE, OR WAS A MISTAKE TO KIND OF MAKE THE SOCIAL JUSTICE ISSUES WHEN THAT SEEMS TO HAVE OPENED THE DOOR FOR PEOPLE TO DISMISS THEM NOW THAT THE LEADERSHIP OF THE COUNTRY HAS CHANGED?

>> I DON'T THINK THAT IT WAS A MISTAKE.

I THINK IT BROUGHT IT TO THE ATTENTION OF THIS NATION.

I THINK THAT, GOING FORWARD, HOWEVER, I THINK WE SHOULD BE CLEAR THAT THIS IS NOT AN ISSUE THAT IMPACTS ONLY ONE RACE OR ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE, THAT IMPACTS EVERYONE.

AND HOW IT IMPACTS EVERYONE.

I THINK THAT WE SHOULD MAKE SURE THAT WE GET, THAT WE EDUCATE PEOPLE SO THEY CAN UNDERSTAND, WHICH IS THE REASON WHY I OFFERED THE INVITATION FOR THE PRESIDENT AND HIS STAFF TO COME AND SEE IT FOR THEMSELVES, BECAUSE ONCE YOU SEE THAT YOU CAN'T UN-SEE IT.

BECAUSE IT MAKES AMERICA, I KEEP SEEING ALL THE SIGNS ABOUT HOW AMERICA IS BACK.

WE NEVER DEALT WITH THIS PROBLEM IN THE FIRST PLACE.

WE NEED TO ADDRESS IT.

>> WELL, TO THAT END, THOUGH, THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN AGGRESSIVELY ROLLING BACK A NUMBER OF POLICIES OF THE PRIOR ADMINISTRATION, INCLUDING, YOU KNOW, HE'S EXITED THE PARIS CLIMATE AGREEMENT AGAIN, HE IS SLASHED CLEAN ENERGY SUBSIDIES, HE'S, YOU KNOW, AND POWERED THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE TO BLOCK STATE CLIMATE LAWS.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS YOU KEEP POINTING OUT, AND YOU POINT OUT IN THE BOOK, IS THAT A LOT OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE AFFECTED BY THIS ARE NOT JUST BLACK PEOPLE OR BROWN PEOPLE OR POOR PEOPLE, PEOPLE WHO HAVE PREVIOUSLY NOT BEEN AFFECTED, PEOPLE FROM ALL DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS ARE AFFECTED BY THIS, INCLUDING FARMERS, WHO, AS A GROUP, TENDED TO HAVE BEEN PARTICULARLY SUPPORTIVE OF THE SAID MINISTRATION.

ONE JUST SORT OF WONDERING, LIKE, WHY IT IS THAT THAT, THAT MESSAGE, THAT THIS AFFECTS EVERYBODY, DOESN'T SEEM TO BE GETTING THROUGH, AT LEAST NOT AT THE MOMENT.

>> I THINK THAT IS NOT GETTING THROUGH BECAUSE THE PEOPLE, AND THIS IS THE PROBLEM THAT I FOUND IN ALL THE YEARS I'VE BEEN DOING THIS WORK.

OFTENTIMES THE PEOPLE THAT ARE MAKING THE POLICY HAVEN'T BEEN TO THESE COMMUNITIES.

THEY HAVEN'T LIVED IN THESE COMMUNITIES.

THEY DON'T TALK TO THE PEOPLE ON THE GROUND.

THEY HAVE NO UNDERSTANDING ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON, AND THEY HAVE A TOP-DOWN APPROACH.

AND THE TOP-DOWN APPROACH DOES NOT WORK.

IT DOESN'T WORK NO MATTER WHO'S IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

AND THAT'S PART OF THE PROBLEM.

AND I THINK THE ONLY WAY WE'RE GOING TO GET THE REAL SOLUTIONS IS TO MAKE SURE THAT, FIRST OF ALL, WE LISTEN TO PEOPLE THAT ARE ON THE GROUND.

IT SHOULD BE POLICY --YOU ARE TRYING TO FINALLY GET THEIR DAY, BECAUSE THEY'VE BEEN BUILDING, THEY'VE BEEN TRYING TO GET THIS POLICY ENACTED FOR 20 YEARS, AND IT'S NO LONGER APPROPRIATE.

IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

AND LIKEWISE, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT INFRASTRUCTURE, WE CAN'T TALK ABOUT THE INFRASTRUCTURE IN THIS COUNTRY WITHOUT TALKING ABOUT HOW THE CLIMATE IS CHANGING.

WHAT DO YOU WANT TO CALL IT, CLIMATE CHANGE, OR THE WEATHER IS CHANGING OR WHATEVER.

YOU CAN COLLECT REVELATIONS.

BUT IT IS CHANGING.

AND WHEN IT'S CHANGING, IT'S IMPACTING THE INFRASTRUCTURE.

THE FAILING INFRASTRUCTURE IS IMPACTING OUR PRODUCTIVITY, AND IT'S IMPACTING THE HEALTH OF EVERYBODY.

AND WE NEED TO FIX IT.

>> WHAT KEEPS YOU GOING?

>> MY FACE.

MY FACE KEEPS ME GOING.

I CAME FROM PRAYING PARENTS.

I COME FROM A PRAYING FAMILY.

I AM INSPIRED BY ALL THE PEOPLE FROM THE MOVEMENTS THAT I WAS INVOLVED IN, SEEING PEOPLE IN THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, BEFORE THEY DID ANY ACTION, THEY PRAYED FIRST.

AND I'M ALSO HOPEFUL BECAUSE OF THE YOUNG PEOPLE THAT I ENCOUNTER.

I SPOKE TO A CLASS RECENTLY, AND THE PROFESSOR WROTE ME AS RECENTLY AS YESTERDAY AND SAID TO ME, TWO OF THE YOUNG PEOPLE THAT WERE IN HIS CLASS CHANGE THEIR MAJORS BECAUSE OF THE ENGAGEMENT THAT WE HAD TOGETHER, TALKING TO EACH OTHER AND LISTENING.

AND THAT'S WHY I'M VERY HOPEFUL.

I REMAIN HOPEFUL.

AND WE ALWAYS HAVE TO LEAVE ROOM FOR TRANSFORMATION.

PEOPLE CAN CHANGE.

>> YOU HAVE A WORD FOR PEOPLE WHO, WHO ARE DISCOURAGED RIGHT NOW?

BECAUSE MANY OF THE ISSUES, LIKE, THAT YOU'VE BEEN WORKING ON FOR YEARS, PEOPLE REALLY DO SEE BACKSLIDING.

AND I WOULD, I WOULD ASK, LIKE, WHAT, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THEM, TO PEOPLE WHO REALLY FEEL LIKE, YOU DON'T HAVE A LOT OF TIME LEFT, AND YET WE'RE, WE'RE GOING BACKWARDS?

HOW DO YOU, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY?

>> DON'T BURY YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND.

BECOME ACTIVE.

AND THE WAY I KEEP GOING IS THAT I STAY ACTIVE.

WE HAVE TO FIND WAYS TO STAY ENGAGED, WHETHER YOU WRITE A BOOK, WHETHER YOU WRITE AN OP- ED, WHETHER YOU ATTEND A RALLY, WHETHER YOU JUST SIMPLY VOTE, WHETHER YOU REGISTER PEOPLE TO VOTE, YOU KNOW, I THINK WE HAVE TO STAY ENGAGED.

AS I LOOKED AT, I WAS A HISTORY TEACHER.

AS I LOOK AT AMERICAN HISTORY, AS I LOOK AT THE HISTORY, EVEN THE FRENCH REVOLUTION, IT WAS SUSTAINED ENGAGEMENT THAT BROUGHT ABOUT THE CHANGE, AND WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO KEEP BEING ENGAGED.

ONE OF THE THINGS I'VE LEARNED IN ALL MY YEARS ON THIS PLANET IS THAT WE CAN'T REST ON OUR LAURELS WHEN WE HAVE SUCCESS.

WE HAVE TO CONTINUE TO BE VIGILANT.

WE HAVE TO REMAIN PERSISTENT, AND WE HAVE TO STAY ACTIVE.

>> BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, YOUR BOOK IS CALLED, YOUR LATEST BOOK IS CALLED HOLY GROUND.

WHY, WHY THIS BOOK, WHY NOW, AND WHY DO YOU CALL IT THAT?

>> WELL, THE BOOK WAS SOMETHING THAT I THOUGHT OF TWO YEARS AGO, BECAUSE I THOUGHT WE WERE GOING TO COME TO A TIME WHEN WE WOULD NEED THAT, BUT WE WOULD NEED TO BE REMINDED OF WHO WE ARE AND HOW WE GOT TO WHERE WE ARE.

AND I FELT THAT ONE WAY TO DO THAT WAS TO TALK ABOUT MY OWN PERSONAL STRUGGLES, BECAUSE THEY'RE INTERTWINED IN EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THOSE ESSAYS, YOU KNOW?

I EVEN REVEALED SOME THINGS ABOUT MYSELF THAT I HAD NEVER SHARED BEFORE, THAT I WAS, I HAD AN ECTOPIC PREGNANCY, AND IT WASN'T AN ECTOPIC PREGNANCY THAT BOTHERED ME, IT WAS THE WAY I FOUND OUT ABOUT IT.

YOU KNOW, I WAS HALFWAY IN A TWILIGHT SLEEP, AND THE DOCTOR CAME IN AND SAID, SHE CAN HAVE THE BABY.

I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW I WAS PREGNANT.

BUT THOSE ARE DECISIONS THAT WERE TAKEN AWAY FROM ME.

AND I EVEN REVEALED MY MOTHER'S, THE FACT THAT MY MOTHER WAS STERILIZED.

AND THERE ARE SO MANY OTHER PEOPLE THAT HAVE COME FORWARD SINCE THAT TIME THIS YEAR WITH THEIR OWN STORIES.

SO I THINK THAT WE HAVE A PIVOTAL POINT WHERE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WOMEN'S RIGHTS, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE RIGHT OF MOTHER EARTH, AND I THINK, AGAIN, IT'S ALL CONNECTED.

WHAT I WANT TO ALSO LEAVE PEOPLE WITH A SENSE OF HOPE, BECAUSE WITH EACH AND EVERY ESSAY, I DO TRY TO LEAVE A SENSE OF HOPE.

BECAUSE I FEEL FOR ME TO BE WHERE I AM AT THIS POINT, COMING FROM THE DIRT ROADS OF LOWNDES COUNTY TO THE COVER OF TIME MAGAZINE, MY PARENTS COULD NOT HAVE IMAGINED THAT.

AND THAT'S WHY MY LAST CHAPTER IS, I AM THE ANSWER TO MY ANCESTORS DREAMS.

>> CATHERINE COLEMAN FLOWERS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> AND FINALLY, A VOICE FROM GAZA HONORED WITH ONE OF JOURNALISM'S HIGHEST ACCOLADES.

RENOWNED PALESTINIAN POET AND WRITER HAS BEEN AWARDED THE PULITZER PRIZE FOR COMMENTARY FOR HIS ESSAYS IN THE NEW YORKER, WHICH PRETRADE A DEEPLY PERSONAL ACCOUNT OF LIFE AMID THE DEVASTATION IN GAZA.

REACTING TO THE AWARD, HE WROTE ON SOCIAL MEDIA, BUT IT HOPE, LET IT BE A TAIL.

HE HAS SPOKE WITH CHRISTIANE LAST YEAR, WHERE HE READ FROM HIS LATEST BOOK OF POETRY, FOREST OF NOISE.

>> NO ART.

THE ART OF LOSING --YOU KNOW EVERYTHING WILL COME TO AN END.

THE SUGAR, THE TEA, THE DRY SAGE, THE WATER.

JUST GO TO THE MARKET AND RESTOCK.

EVEN --WILL ABANDON YOU WHEN THERE IS NO LIGHT, SO JUST KEEP THINGS THAT REQUIRE ONLY YOU.

THE BOOK OF POEMS THAT ONLY YOU CAN DECIPHER.

THE BLANK MAP OF A COUNTRY WHOSE CITIES AND VILLAGES ONLY YOU CAN RECOGNIZE.

I'VE PERSONALLY LOST THREE FRIENDS TO WAR, A CITY TO DARKNESS, AND A LANGUAGE TO FEAR.

THIS WAS NOT EASY TO SURVIVE, BUT SURVIVAL PROVED NECESSARY TO MASTER.

BUT OF ALL THINGS, LOSING THE ONLY PHOTO OF MY GRANDFATHER UNDER THE RUBBLE OF MY HOUSE WAS A REAL DISASTER.

>> A REMINDER OF THE ENDURING POWER OF WORDS.

AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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