- [Announcer] Funding for "Overheard With Evan Smith" comes from: HillCo Partners, a Texas government affairs consultancy; Claire and Carl Stuart; Christine and Philip Dial; Eller Group, specializing in crisis management, litigation and public affairs communication, ellergroup.com; Diane Land and Steve Adler; and Karey and Chris Oddo.

- I'm Evan Smith.

She's an acclaimed singer-songwriter whose memoir "The Harder I Fight the More I Love You" was a New York Times bestseller.

Her latest album is "Neon Grey Midnight Green."

She's Neko Case.

This is "Overheard."

A platform and a voice is a powerful thing.

You really turned the conversation around about what leadership should be about.

Are we blowing this?

Are we doing the thing we shouldn't be doing by giving in to the attention junkie?

As an industry, we have an obligation to hold ourselves to the same standards that we hold everybody else.

- [Announcer] Two.

- This is "Overheard."

(audience applauding) Neko Case, welcome.

It's great to have you here.

- Thank you.

- Thank you so much for being here.

Congratulations on the success of the book and of the record.

Let's talk about the record first, and then we'll come to the book.

You produced this record yourself.

This is the first fully self-produced record of yours.

- Well, I've produced many of my records.

And like a lot of people don't know that there are many different kinds of production.

It's always collaborative unless you're doing it completely by yourself, in a studio by yourself.

So I took credit full-on this time just because it's my studio.

And, you know, I do the lion's share of the heavy lifting.

- This studio is in Eastern Vermont it looks like, right?

So kind of on the New Hampshire side of Vermont.

- Yeah, exactly.

We're right across the border from New York.

- I like the fact that you have said, "This is my record.

I had veto power over this record.

Like, I got to make all the decisions."

That must be liberating for you to be able to do that.

- Yeah, I always do.

- And I don't take it for granted.

It's a really big deal.

Sometimes it can be a little daunting, because trying to please yourself is often a lot harder than trying to please other people.

So I'm also a person who's very ADHD, and in the world of decisions, when it comes to making a creative decision, I can go down a lot of rabbit holes.

And I hate leaving any rabbit holes... - Gone down.

- Undiscovered.

So yeah, exactly.

So I spend more time than a lot of people do making records, just because I don't like to limit any sort of- - And we know you're hard on yourself.

We know that, right?

You have to be hard on yourself in that kind occasion.

- I'm easier on myself than I used to be.

I trust myself a lot more than I used to, but yeah, it's a lot.

And it's maybe the funnest job there could ever be.

- I also like the fact that you note, and this is true, there are very few women who produce records, right?

Like, this is a thing, and we should celebrate the fact that this is another aspect of this, right?

- Yeah, there's a lot of, there's a great deal of men in the industry, and, you know, historically, I haven't seen a lot of women, nonbinary, trans folks in production.

And so partly I credited myself alone for this record, because I wanted to remember myself.

'Cause when I think about production, I often think of a sea of men as well.

- Right, there are too many men in every industry.

- Yeah, probably.

I mean, they're doing good.

We just need more of us too.

And, you know, there are even fewer studio owners who are women.

- Yeah.

It's a big deal.

- Yeah.

It's a big deal.

- It's a big deal.

And owning a studio, it's a lot of work and it's really difficult financially.

But I am able to do it because I bought a building for nothing in the middle of nowhere (chuckles).

So that's kind of how it has to be done.

- Whatever works, right?

- Whatever works, exactly.

- So the record, this has been described as a love letter to musicians, artists, activists.

Everything you do is intentional, so I know you have a theory of this record.

Like, what were you trying to accomplish?

What is the story of this record?

- The story of this record is I wanted people to remember human hands and human hearts.

I wanted people to hear the sounds of people's clothing scraping the chair if they're playing guitar.

I wanted people to feel the "humans were here" aspect.

And musicians are not, in the world of streaming, et cetera, musicians are not consulted as to what they would like to happen.

They're simply exploited.

Not every single thing exploits musicians in that way, but, you know, the big dogs do.

And they exploit hard.

So I wanted to make a love letter to musicians, because they can't help but make music.

They can't help what they do a lot of times.

And they do it not just because it feels good, but because music is something that you can do by yourself and you can please yourself.

But when you're in a world where you are making records for other people to hear and touring so people can come and see, you are wanting that connection with the audience where you complete a circuit.

So we're not on the stage playing and, you know, wanting everybody to be super quiet.

We're gonna just spray our genius all over you while you are quiet in the seat.

It's a engagement, and it's a very ancient thing.

I think human beings, like, if we were to be on a David Attenborough documentary about humans, you know, the way he describes the cheetah, like, "It can run 50 miles an hour," and we're like," Wow, cool."

Human beings have this way of communication with music that is absolutely stunning.

We are stunning animals, and we forget that.

And so I wanted that connection to be part of the record.

I wanted that human breaths.

I just wanted the recognition of completing that cycle.

So it's a love letter to musicians, but it's also a love letter to people who love music.

Because we don't do it without you.

Like, there's an actual physical thing that happens.

This is a two-way deal, right?

- Yeah, there's an actual physical thing that happens.

Because, you know, we can practice and feel really good, but if suddenly one person comes into the room, everything changes, the way we play changes, our intention changes, and it's a really big deal.

And it is a lot to psychically absorb and then give back to.

And you are all giving as well.

It's like you guys are the energy that feeds us, and then we give energy back to you.

And it's like this beautiful self-cooling system.

Well, it's the difference between playing to an empty house and playing to a full house.

Like, the audience is part of the show.

Right, I like that you said that musicians have to make music.

Like, if you're a musician, there's this thing that just, you've gotta do this.

You've been making records almost 30 years now, right?

First record was "Virginian," Neko Case and her Boyfriends in 1997.

What is different from then to now about the act of making music, or specifically about making records?

I think I just, this sounds vain, but I feel that I'm an expert at my job now.

I am not a virtuoso musician, but I know how to make a record.

I know how to go on tour.

I have learned to understand the audience, not in a way where I feel like I know everybody and I, you know, just... What's the word I'm looking for?

Sorry.

Menopause, you know.

(audience laughing) - The word you were looking for was menopause?

No.

- No, but that is the word that's always hanging around.

- Fair.

(audience laughing) - Basically, I don't assume things about the audience.

But there were many years in my life where I feared them a little bit, because it's really intimidating to be on a stage.

But now I feel I really understand my relationship with the audience, and I'm genuinely excited for them to be there.

And I want to comfort people.

I want to remind them how powerful they are.

I want to remind them that they are not just social media.

They are not a tiny sliver of a myopic viewpoint of the news.

They're different.

Everybody's different and powerful, and, you know, they are the answer to everything.

- I love that.

You know how to land the plane safely now, right?

That's it.

That's one big difference.

I read your Substack, Entering the Lung.

And I read a post on Halloween where you were talking about touring with this record, and you were saying, I mean, it wasn't negative, but it was more an acknowledgement of touring can sometimes be challenging, right?

There are aspects of it that can be challenging.

I suspect that's something that is no different from 30 years ago.

- Yeah, and I try to kind of report on it more as like just general information, not as a complaint, but the mythology of rock and roll is really thick.

People assume that it must be very glamorous to be on the road, not knowing how many truck-stop toilets we actually see.

- Right, nothing fun about truck-stop toilets.

I totally agree.

- No.

- Right.

- But it's so rewarding and we love it so much that it really, it is a labor of love and a very, very specific job.

And the first time I ever played a show out of town on a tour, there were no questions in my mind.

This is for me.

This is where I live.

- Well, when this record came out, you said on social media: "This is what I do and who I am."

Right, it's like the mafia.

This is the life we've chosen, right?

Like, you know who you are.

It's very self-aware, I think, to say, "Look, good, bad, this is the thing I'm gonna do."

So I want to say two things I really have admired about you for years.

One, and it's almost a cliche to say it to you, is your voice.

You have got the most extraordinary voice of almost anybody I can think of.

(audience applauding) - Thank you.

- And over the year, I mean, I can hear your voice from space.

I always know it's you when I hear it in another room.

And like every adjective in the world has been attached to your voice: powerhouse, 120-mile per hour fastball, tornadic.

Do you think about your voice that way?

Do you think about how powerful your voice is?

And I also want you to kind of go back, when you first started as a singer, did you think: "I have a different voice than other people?

I have different gifts than other people."

- I knew it was different.

I knew it was loud.

But early on I didn't have a lot of range or dynamic.

And that was, you know, fear.

Because when you first start something, you're like, "I'm doing the thing I want to do.

This is so scary."

It took a lot of years to kind of figure out what it was and what to do with it.

- Yeah, the other thing I want to say about you that I'm so impressed by over the years is your versatility.

So you started out in punk bands.

New Pornographers, which we'll talk about, is kind of power pop.

You've done kind of alt-rock.

The thing that I'm most amazed about is all the country stuff that you've done, mostly covers that I've heard, but also similar.

I remember being at the Wilco Music Festival, Solid Sound, in 2022, and Wilco was playing and they brought you out on stage and you played a Connie Smith song.

- Yeah, that was fun.

- "Once a Day."

And I was just slack-jawed listening to you sing that.

And I thought, "She's Loretta Lynn.

She's Patsy Cline."

You have a voice that is so perfectly adaptable to almost every kind of music.

And again, I kind of want to not only commend you on that, but also say do you think about that aspect of your career, because you really do have the ability to switch.

- Well, I think of country music all the time.

And a lot of people don't, they wouldn't consider me country music at this point, which is also fair.

But country music was, basically, in the '90s, early '90s, late '80s, punk rock music was what I was interested in.

But it became really macho and really misogynist at a certain point.

And I realized that the women in country music, especially people like Loretta Lynn with songs like "The Pill," you know, they were so much more punk rock than the men of punk rock were.

And they also had melody.

And (audience laughing) they also- - God forbid.

Right.

- I know, and, you know, ever since I was a little girl, I've been listening to country music, and I always remember seeing, you know, pictures of Dolly Parton with a guitar or a banjo and Loretta with a guitar.

And it said to me: "Okay, women play these instruments."

Whereas, you know, there weren't a lot of women in punk rock.

I was starving for them: starving.

And so country music really addressed that appetite.

And over the years I figured out, you know, I was very naive about it and thought, "Oh, maybe country music will accept me."

There's people like k.d.

lang and stuff.

But the gatekeepers just got, they doubled down harder.

- I'm not even sure they accepted k.d.

lang.

- Well, she's so undeniable they couldn't not.

They had no choice.

They were like, "Yeah, I guess.

Geez."

'Cause she's basically like a national park of sound.

She's incredible.

She's like Yosemite.

(audience laughing) so they were just kind of like, I think they were just dumbfounded.

And she just walked right by them, which is beautiful.

But that's such a singular thing.

And she's such a singular person, whereas I'm different.

And, you know, I learned quickly that the gatekeepers of country music wanted nothing to do with me and they wanted nothing to do with women.

And, you know, now, in country music, like Top 40 Country, if it's even called that anymore, women aren't even played very much.

- I want to talk about the book.

We have some time to do this.

And I think the book is such an extraordinary accomplishment.

You really bare all in this book.

And it's bleak to a degree, right?

It's not all bleak.

But your origin story, as a person first, let's do, and then your origin story as a musician.

Your family situation was, let's say, not ideal.

- Not ideal.

- Not ideal.

Can you talk about your parents?

- My parents had me when they were teenagers.

And to be fair, that was not- that wasn't in their plans.

And I just wasn't really, I was not a wanted child.

So there was a lot of neglect.

- Yeah.

Your mom you were told had died.

- Yes.

My mother faked her death.

And I thought she was dead for about a year and a half.

So I was a kid in second and third grade grieving the death of my mother and not really understanding.

- It turned out, was not- - It turned out she was not dead.

And, you know, being a kid, I didn't think about being angry with my mom.

I didn't think about asking too many questions.

I was just like, 'cause the grief felt like I was just walking down this really awful, dark hallway, and there was a big set of doors; and past that big set of doors was the worst it could be.

And I got right to the doors before I had to go through, and boom, my mother was there again.

And I worshiped her.

I loved her very much.

And I didn't care about anything that had happened before.

I just was grateful that my mom was back.

- It was not though a traditional childhood in any respect.

And you write in this book, in various ways, about how you were basically alone.

I mean, you raised yourself, I mean, to the degree that this is not a cliche, you raised yourself.

- Yes.

- Yeah.

And were emancipated at... - I think 15.

- 15?

- Yeah.

- 15.

So by the time that you're emancipated, you're on the West Coast.

You're in the Pacific Northwest.

- [Neko] Yes.

- And within a couple of years, you're playing music.

- Yes.

- This is the part that goes from bleak to kind of amazing, right?

So you become, and you're a drummer out of the gate.

- Yes.

- A drummer.

Talk about that.

- Well... - And why?

- Well, I was a pretty aggressive kid.

I was pretty physical.

And I was also really shy.

So being behind the drums was a way that I could hide a little bit.

But I also knew that drums weren't the most traditional thing for women to do in a band.

And so I didn't feel completely like a woman.

I wanted to do some other things, you know?

I was into things like fixing cars.

And, you know, I felt very much in the middle.

- But you made the decision to learn to play the drums and to play the drums.

- I did.

- And there were not a lot of other women at that time playing the drums who were probably very visible for you to look to as role models.

- Exactly.

Yes.

- I was trying to remember, would you have seen Sheila E. at the time?

- Oh yeah.

I love Sheila E.

- Right.

We can probably make a pretty short list, though, of the people who at that time were doing that, right?

- Yeah.

You know, Lori Barbero from Babes in Toyland and a few other people.

I think I might have even found out about them a little later than I was playing drums.

- Yeah.

Amazing.

So you're in Tacoma at this point, where you start playing.

So I want to read back a line that just stuck with me and has stuck I think with everybody who's read this book.

Because the other interesting thing about this period is you go to somebody's house who pops in a videotape, and they show a clip from the great movie "Athens, GA: Inside/Out."

And you see a performance by the Flat Duo Jets.

- Yes.

- And Dexter Romweber, who became ultimately your mentor of sorts in music.

- Yeah.

I mean, he didn't know he was my mentor.

- But you saw him as that.

- Exactly.

- So you saw the Flat Duo Jets, and you said "Something unlocked for me that day, still not yet fully formed, but a way that making music could become a physical manifestation of the blazing wild horse energy inside my body."

I thought blazing wild horse energy, that's a hell of a turn of phrase.

But it also seems to fit kind of with, again, the power of your music.

That was really a pretty significant moment for you, and inflection point, wasn't it?

- It was a huge moment.

And it's funny, because I actually forgot to mention my friend Bon Von Wheelie from the band Girl Trouble from Tacoma, Washington.

She was an incredible drummer and still is.

And it was her videotape that I saw.

So it was kind of a double whammy of influence there.

And I just saw his energy, and I realized that there was a difference between acting and a difference between being.

And he was being.

The music was pushing him, not him pushing the music.

And it's something you can't fake.

- Yeah.

- He had kind of this beautiful Roky Erickson kind of feeling, another person who was moved by the music rather than the other way around.

I just saw in him and heard the sounds that I wished I was making.

Not in a jealous way, but it was more like a call to action.

Like, you really need to be serious about this.

- It was inspiring.

- Yeah.

Very much so.

- He died last year.

- Yes, he did.

- Yeah, and Winchester mentioned the sound on the new record is kind of like- - That is a song about him.

- for him.

Right, I mean, that song is for him.

It's incredible.

And of course, that band is so great.

It's interesting to hear, you know, who was in your set of bands that influenced you, because it all makes sense like you say it out loud.

After you were in Tacoma, you end up going to art school briefly in Canada, in Vancouver.

- Yes.

- Don't stay in art school, but do stay in bands.

- I did stay in art school, actually.

- Did you graduate from the art school?

- There was a mix-up, so I didn't know that I was short four credits and neither did my school.

And so I didn't graduate, but I got to show in the season show.

And that's what I really wanted.

And then in 2016 I graduated.

- So they finally let you kind of, did- - Well, I did one more course.

For some reason I was like, "I really want my-" - Made up those hours, actually.

- I made up those hours and I got my diploma.

- So you play in bands in Canada, and you get connected at some point with the folks who become the New Pornographers?

- Yes.

Canada is one of the world's biggest countries with one of the world's smallest populations.

And so if you're gonna be in a band with somebody in Canada, you're gonna have to be okay with the fact that your bass player plays in three other bands.

- Right.

(audience laughing) - And it's more of a potluck situation.

And it's more a system that really agrees with art and music.

'Cause in America, things are more, there's kind of a sports set of rules set on top of them, like charting and, you know, there's like a little competitive thing that's in there, which makes no sense and never felt good to me.

Because in art and music, there's room for everyone.

- But you're a founding member of that band.

All these years later, do you still consider yourself an active member of that band?

- Yeah, I still record with, I still play with.

- So I got a notification through Spotify that they were gonna be in my town.

You know, that's what happens these days.

You know, band in your library is gonna be in your town.

So they're gonna be in my town in like six months.

You're gonna come on tour with them?

- No, I will not be on that tour, because I have to tour my own record because I haven't put one out in forever.

And that's the difference between Carl and I, is Carl is always writing.

He's the most prolific songwriter I know and the most consistently great with melody.

Like, he's basically a genius.

- But you'd go on tour if- - Oh, if I wasn't doing this, I would be doing that.

But, you know, we know that that's the way it is sometimes.

- A little bit of FOMO, probably, right?

- Yeah, there is.

- Not to get into it.

But the good news is you're still an active member of the band.

And so that's actually good.

Okay.

- Yes.

- In the remaining time we have left, I want to ask you about something that I heard a while ago and couldn't believe, and it apparently is true, you are writing the music for a "Thelma & Louise" musical?

- Yes.

- It is true.

(audience applauding) That the director of that film, Callie Khouri, asked you to write the music.

- She did.

- And you're writing the music.

- Yes.

- What can you say about this?

- Well, it's been, I think it's either, we've been doing it for eight or 10 years, which is a really long time to keep your mouth shut, by the way, when you're a talkie person.

- Right, but it's kind of like, sort of of kind of public now, right?

- It's totally public now.

- Well, it is now, by the way.

- Yes, it is public.

It's been the most incredible collaborative experience I've ever had, because there are four people on the creative team; we all kind of make decisions together.

And at first I thought that might be a little scary, or I might, you know, feel really attached to something I wrote, and they would be like, "No, I don't buy that.

Oh, that doesn't work there."

But when you have to make all the decisions that are final, it's a huge, huge responsibility.

And trying to please yourself is really difficult.

- As you said.

Right.

- So when you have people coming in and helping you make those decisions and you're helping them make decisions, you feel more invested.

And it's like going from plowing the field by yourself to riding in some kind of hovercraft working on something.

It is so lovely.

- So when will we hear this music or see this musical?

- Well, we've been working on it in London because we have US and British producers.

And so we've been workshopping in London, and we have a limited run coming out, and I believe September of 2016 in London.

- '26.

'26?

- 2016.

Oh my Lord.

- That's okay.

- 2026.

Thank you.

- You're welcome.

That's all right.

- And so it will be a limited release.

And then we decide if it goes to the West End in London or if it comes to Broadway here.

Or if we just go, "Nope, it's terrible.

We're gonna cancel it."

Which I hope we don't do.

- I badly want to hear it.

My fingers are crossed.

I hope it's a huge success and you get rich.

- Thank you.

- That's my goal for you.

Okay, good.

(audience applauding) Thank you for making the time to be with us.

Again, love the book, love the record, love talking to you.

Give Neko Case a big hand.

Thanks very much.

(audience applauding) Thank you so much.

Really enjoyed it.

- My pleasure.

- Take care.

We'd love to have you join us in the studio.

Visit our website at austinpbs.org/overheard to find invitations to interviews, Q&As with our audience and guests, and an archive of past episodes.

- "Tomboy Gold" is meant to be the companion song to "Destination," which is the song right before it on the record.

And "Destination" is a song about the female and nonbinary troubadours I've met over the course of my career who helped me find a way to be myself in music.

- [Announcer] Funding for "Overheard With Evan Smith" comes from: HillCo Partners, a Texas government affairs consultancy; Claire and Carl Stuart; Christine and Philip Dial; Eller Group, specializing in crisis management, litigation and public affairs communication, ellergroup.com; Diane Land and Steve Adler; and Karey and Chris Oddo.

(soft flute music)