[lounge music] ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ - The best response you can have to a payoff in a thriller is someone goes, "Oh, right, I forgot, of course..." [multiple voices chattering] [Narrator] "On Story" offers a look inside the creative process from today's leading writers, creators, and filmmakers.

All of our content is recorded live at Austin Film Festival and at our year-round events.

To view previous episodes, visit OnStory.tv.

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[waves] [kids screaming] [wind] [witch cackling] [sirens wail] [gunshots] [dripping] [suspenseful music] [telegraph beeping, typing] [piano gliss] From Austin Film Festival, this is "On Story."

A look inside the creative process from today's leading writers, creators, and filmmakers.

This week's "On Story," "Forrest Gump" and "Dune" screenwriter, Eric Roth.

- It's 24-hour-a-day job as a writer.

So the things that I'm working on now, they give me moments of anxiety or pleasure, but they're just there all the time.

Whether you're in your sleep or your dreams, or when you're just walking around, you say, "Wait, should I do it this way or that way?"

But I think you have to inhabit this stuff and or it inhabits you, I guess, and be even better.

[paper crumples] [typing] [typewriter ding] [Narrator] In this episode, Academy Award winning screenwriter, Eric Roth, talks about his process of adapting stories from beloved properties, including "Dune" and "Killers of the Flower Moon."

[typewriter ding] - We are thrilled to have Eric Roth here.

In addition to winning the Austin Film Festival Distinguished Screenwriter Award in 2012, Eric won the Academy Award for Best Adapted Screenplay for "Forrest Gump."

- Oh, could I tell you a story?

- Yeah, please do.

- I just remembered this.

I came with...

I don't know if it's the first time I came, but it was one of the early times I came, I was just thinking of coming, and I had just been fired on "The Horse Whisperer," and they brought in another writer.

And I was heartbroken in the whole conference.

You know what I'm saying?

Anyway, I just had that memory.

- So you got fired right before you came here?

- Yeah, literally that day.

- I hate that that's how you remember us.

- No, no, no, I don't, but I just remembered that was painful.

- Oh, I bet!

I was going back through your bio and looking at some of the films that you were on in in the beginning of your writing career.

I'd like to know from you how those experiences working on, at the time, a Joseph Wambaugh book that was huge, and, of course, "The Drowning Pool," which was a Ross Macdonald book, how they set you up for the go-to guy for adaptations, for sure.

- Well, the reason I even have a career is that I got just freak out lucky and I won the...

I tied, actually, with Colin Higgins for their Samuel Goldwyn Writing Awards.

And Colin went on to do "9 to 5" and "Harold und Maude," well, in reverse order, and unfortunately died way too young.

But that got me an agent, which was a huge deal.

And I had written a couple things before that, but I had known Stuart Rosenberg who was a director from the AFI, and he invited me to come down.

I don't know how old I was, maybe I was 22 years old or something.

They needed a rewrite on "The Drowning Pool."

And I went down to Louisiana, Lafayette, Louisiana, and I had bought a new pair of corduroys and a new briefcase.

And I walked on the set and Paul Newman was sitting there, and Joanne Woodward, and Tony Franciosa and a couple other names.

And Paul said, "Our savior's here."

[laughs] And it was hilarious.

And we remained friends really for a long, long time after that.

"Onion Field" was slightly more complicated because... And it was a great job.

Wambaugh was kind of tough to work with, he didn't really respect me.

I don't think he was a hard-nosed guy, but he certainly knew about police.

I found the whole thing fascinating.

It's a story about cop killing and it changed a lot of laws.

- Get out, Jim.

[suspenseful music] ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ - It also is one of the more sort of dramatic moments in my life.

I went and rode with the police and did a ride.

At that point they had a unit that could stop anybody they wanted to.

They didn't even have to have just cause if they thought someone's headlights shouldn't have been out; and that's what happened with these guys.

[typewriter ding] I always approach adaptations as originals in a way.

"Dune" is a perfect example of, what is that?

A 4 million-page book.

You have to get down to 120 pages or whatever.

My scripts were long, so let's say even 150 pages.

So you have to learn how to dramatize.

And also in those kind of things like "Dune," you have to be faithful to the material.

I think in "Onion Field," I would have had to do two.

I mean, it wasn't something you could kind of fool around with.

And you can coalesce things to dramatize them, but you can't sort of change the facts.

I always approach it as, where do I start and where am I gonna end?

And the middle is always a big blur to me.

I'm big on theme, what is a movie really about?

Not story but theme.

And then secondly, how am I telling this story?

Who are the characters?

How do we get invested in them?

How does everybody have an individual voice?

Who's unique?

And how do we write this so it's -- and I'm still learning how to do it, and I wish I could do better.

It's subtextual writing where you're not just writing about what's happening and telling the story like, tomorrow we're gonna go take a road journey.

To be able to tell it in a metaphor is always better.

That's why Martin Scorsese is a great subtextual director, I think.

There's others, many others.

I think that's what can separate somebody in the craft of screenwriting.

And I think it is a craft, I'm not sure it's an art form.

I think you can be artful at it, I'm sure it's an art form because it's such a communal kind of thing.

I'm not sure what the basis of it is for if you just printed out a script and then just leave it there.

- So with "Dune" for instance, there's so much artistry in the film and he's obviously such a visual story teller.

Do you even bother with how he's gonna tell the story or... - Yeah, I think we began by, what do you want to get out of this, Denis?

What is the things that have resonated with you?

'Cause he was really taken with the book from the age of 13, I think.

And aside from the fanboy stuff, what is this about that interests you and what do you wanna emphasize in the storytelling?

And then we began.

I first had to write like a 50-page treatment to make sure that the State was happy, 'cause they were very worried about us somehow besmirching the thing.

I went as far as I could, I wrote a very big elaborate script.

I think it needed cutting to be honest with you, and Denis did a great job of that.

And then I think it needed to land on his feet, which a writer named Jon Spaihts did.

I think he came in and did wonderful stuff.

And he's an interesting director.

I love working with him.

I'm lucky I work with probably the greatest directors who ever lived in my era.

So this was one of the few times I think that I would say the three of us somehow created something that was certainly was positive for "Dune" and also, I think, represented the things that in the main, you're never gonna make everybody happy, but that contained the things that were in the book that people were so taken with.

And then to try to make it an odyssey, and all the things that it became.

Denis' first thing was he wanted to emphasize the women and sort of a female point of view.

- Candidates for housekeeper, my Lady.

[gentle footsteps] - What is your name?

- Shadout Mapes, my Lady.

- The rest of you may go, thank you.

Shadout.

That's an old Chakobsa word.

Well-dipper.

- You know the ancient tongues.

- I know many things.

I know that you have a weapon concealed in your bodice.

If you mean to harm me, I must warn you whatever you're hiding, it won't be enough.

- The weapon is meant as a gift, if you are truly the One.

- Anytime we felt, where am I?

We could go back to the book.

And that's always a good thing, I think, to just remember when you're writing, go back to the story when you're having problems, 'cause there's a story you're telling, and you can wander away from it and sort of make it interesting, more elaborate, whatever, but you want to come back to what's giving you a solid ground.

I had never written anything quite like that.

It was, first of all, being out of this world, and it was an interesting challenge.

And also to stay with whatever was in the book to a certain extent, even though I found some of it kind of corny or something, but some of it is very prescient, it's about ecology.

And it's a pretty incredible piece of work that Mr. Herbert did.

I mean, he had his own glossary.

And it was, uh, yeah, he really world-built in a really amazing way.

And so to try to be true to that and also be imaginative where you could go places maybe that the book didn't quite go, so you had be brave to some extent.

And in some places I succeeded, in some places I probably didn't.

- There were places where it follows the book and there were a few places where chunks of the book were missing.

And obviously this is clearly set up to be over two movies, not one movie.

And how did that affect some of the things you chose to leave in?

I mean, are the things that...

Some things were flipped around, I don't know whether that was you or Jon Spaihts.

- We did feel very strongly the whole idea that he could see the future was a big part of it.

[suspenseful music] [music intensifying] ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ [Eerie Voice] Kwisatz Haderach.

You can see.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ - Which parts of the book we decide not to emphasize the same way?

I mean, somebody who knows Dune could tell me.

I think I just read some review recently who said, "Well, they missed doing something."

And I remembered it, but I guess it didn't feel as important, at least to me.

And I think we succeeded in telling the best part of the story.

[typewriter ding] Eventually it ends up the directors, and that's it.

I could fool you and say, and I'm a big believer, and if it's not on the page it's not gonna be there and the word is the thing, but eventually the director has to make the movie he wants to make.

It's like how I had such a fond work relationship and still do with David Fincher, and we did such wonderful thing, I think on "Mank," which is really an interesting movie.

And that was kind of a really interesting way about how did this guy relate to Orson Welles?

How did Orson Welles relate to him?

And Orson Welles did what I think he should have.

But if you look at the original screenplay, which is like 182 pages or something, everything's in there.

So then Orson came in and did what he was supposed to do.

But I think we have a line or two we had in "Mank" about, sort of, I'm gonna give you the metaphor and it's probably not what was in the movie per se, but that the writer's gonna build a boat and set it off on his journey, but the director's gonna have to take it there.

- You ask me what my acceptance speech might have been?

Well, here it goes.

I am very happy to accept this award in the manner in which this screenplay was written, which is to say, in the absence of Orson Welles.

How's that?

[Reporter] How come he shares credit?

- Well, that my friend, is the magic of the movies.

[man laughing] [Photographer] Hold up Oscar, Mank.

Big smile!

[camera shuttering] - So what was the theme of "Mank" that was attractive to you?

I mean, I know you produced that movie.

I mean, it is an interesting story for you to be involved in considering it's about a screenwriter.

- Yeah, well, I think that's why David wanted me because I do kind of know the world and I also know the world of protecting your credit or losing credit.

I haven't had that happen, but I know how you feel so attached to your work that you don't want things changed.

And then here was a guy who was pretty smart guy, I mean, he might have been a genius and never really invested in what he was writing per se.

And all of a sudden he found the one thing that really meant something to him.

- Now, I talked to RKO and I'll tell you what they're ready to do.

In recognition of the outstanding work you've done so far, they're prepared to relieve you of the rewrite and still honor your full pay.

Plus $10,000.

How's that?

- That's more than generous.

But I don't intend to walk.

- All right.

What's bothering you, then?

- You're not going to like this, Orson.

[exhales] I want credit.

- Come again?

- It's the best thing I've ever written.

- And then it became a credit fight and this and that.

So yeah, I think David know, and I also know the world of a writer and a director and I work with 20 different directors.

And I know when you have to take a middle path, when you can sort of stand your ground and where you're gonna end up losing.

"Onion Field"'s a great example of sort of the power of a director.

I wrote a scene, I remember, in "Onion Field" that I just thought was great.

And the director said, "I just don't like it, it's not working for me."

And I said, "No, you're wrong.

This is just great."

And he said, "I'll tell you what, you leave it in the screenplay, I'm not gonna shoot it."

And that was a lesson learnt.

You know what I'm saying?

It wasn't very generous, it was a little narrow minded, but it was the case.

I mean, that's kind of the bottom line.

Not that I'm so todding to directors, but I think that it becomes theirs.

And that's why a lot of people become writer-directors.

I don't blame them.

- How much are you in the process of doing these adaptations?

'Cause you're working with huge directors here.

Are you communicating with them all the way along, like you said, you were texting back and forth?

- I love the interplay with a director who's willing to be... Will respect my abilities and will encourage me that way.

I've had some others that have been a little rougher where you're feeling like you have to keep proving things.

[typewriter ding] There's a guy who used to be a critic for the New York Times, Elvis Mitchell, who does an NPR show about movies.

He's a very, very smart guy.

He said, "I think your movies are all about loneliness."

And I thought about it and I think he's right.

And I think that also goes to the loneliness of, there used to be that movie, "Loneliness of the Long-Distance Runner" and "The Loneliness of the Long-Distance Writer."

Yeah, I'm alone a lot.

It's 24-hour-a-day job as a writer.

So the things that I'm working on now, they give me moments of anxiety or pleasure, but they're just there all the time, whether in your sleep or your dreams or when you're just walking around, you say, "Wait, should I do it this way or that way?"

And it becomes inconsequential in the long run maybe, but maybe that's, I don't know, maybe that's some gift I have, I don't know.

It's not that I'm Mozart or anybody, it's just that...

But I think you have to inhabit this stuff or it inhabits you I guess, would be even better.

There's all these other worlds I get to go to.

And that's why I love "Dune" and I love "Killers of the Flower Moon."

And all the work I get is like, I get to be kind of a journalist and I do a lot of great research and meet people.

I mean, it's like I have my own sort of bit of "Forrest Gump" in me 'cause I've met so many famous people.

There's no reason I should have.

And yet I get to sort of be at least party to their lives for a certain point in time.

- So even on a book like "Killers," you would do a lot of research?

Do you do even though the book is essentially a research document?

- I still do a lot of research.

I mean, in the sense of, first of all, I would get in touch with David Grann, who wrote the book, and say, "What about this?

What about that?"

And some things he had transcripts of and some things he didn't.

And then I have to...

The internet's the greatest thing that ever happened.

You could find out all sorts of apocryphal or details you wouldn't have known, and he can't cover everything in the book.

It's not quite that simple.

In other words, you take the structure of the book and what he's giving you and the way of the characters and who the real people were, that was obviously about real people.

And so you'd have to decide, how am I gonna dramatize this not to make them less real but to somehow maybe make one more heroic and one more villainous.

And that's what your job is.

And what are the colors of these people in the sense of the coloration of the tones of them.

What frightened them?

What made them angry?

You know what I mean?

I think you have to know all that to write a good screenplay.

- When you finish a script, do you feel like you found the alchemy?

- Oh yeah, I think every time.

Yeah, I say, "This is it!"

I wouldn't turn it in otherwise.

I'm particularly proud of it.

Then it's really interesting because a half hour later you get depressed and figure you've really blown it.

And then three days later or whenever, you get notes and the notes either reflect things you didn't even consider or they don't reflect what you wrote, and then you say, "Well, how am I gonna fix this?"

- So your most inspired space is really when you are collaborating with the director than just when you're alone writing?

- Oh, I think equally, equally.

Yeah, when I'm alone, I have the freedom to just think, "Hey, this is pretty good."

And then the challenge of, how can I sort of wow myself, wow people who are gonna read it?

Then the next stage is when the director comes in, and if it's somebody who you feel like you can have inspiring conversation with, and you get into these kind of intimate details of our lives, and why didn't we do this and where did we screw up here, and then getting to know each other in that sense.

In other words, we might be from really different worlds and try to find a common bond with the material.

I mean, it can be just so; you walk out of there walking on air in a way when you have a really great creative conversation, if it's an equal conversation.

If it's not an equal conversation, then it's no fun.

[typewriter ding] - What was the moment where you realized the way into "Forrest Gump"?

- The book was a little farcical for my taste.

Not that "Forrest Gump" is so believable, but I thought you should try to make a believable universe within this false universe.

I guess when I came up with the notion of the feather, that the movie was about destiny or fate or whatever you wanna call it.

Accident, if you'd like, or design.

And when I could come up with that, I could feel like I could have him have all these adventures and they seemed to make some sense.

- Can you tell us what was China like?

- In the land of China, people hardly got nothing at all.

- No possessions?

[audience laughing] - And in China, they never go to church.

- No religion, too?

- Oh.

Hard to imagine.

- It's easy if you try, Dick.

- Tom and I were given this book, "Forrest Gump," and I sent it to him, I said, "What do you think?

I think the things..." We both thought it kind of nutty but was maybe worth a shot.

So he said, "God bless."

And he said, "I'll attach."

If we liked the script together and all that.

We ended up selling it to Paramount.

And Tom came in.

And Tom, actually, he would act out a lot of it, which is pretty winning to have Tom Hanks act out what you've written.

And then there was kind of a little bit of a war to see who's gonna direct it.

And it ended up falling to Bob Zemeckis, who I think gave it probably more humor than I ever had.

And he has sort of a poke a stick in the eye at anybody.

He doesn't care their politics or anything and irreverent kind of guy.

And he's terrific, he's just wonderful.

So, that was...

I think it was probably this, I could do this.

That's why I said I'm not saying it was a bad book, but that sometimes books that aren't as well known or as popular or anything can become really interesting movies.

One of the reasons is you don't mind tampering with it in a way.

So I just felt the permission to do anything I wanted with it.

And so I started basically sitting on the bench and where's he going and started asking those questions and what's his life like and what's he telling you about?

- Were you scared in Vietnam?

- Yes.

Well, I, I don't know.

Sometimes it would stop raining long enough for the stars to come out.

And then it was nice.

It was like just before the sun goes to bed down on the bayou.

There was over a million sparkles on the water.

Like that mountain lake.

It was so clear, Jenny.

It looks like there were two skies, one on top of the other.

And then in the desert, when the sun comes up...

I couldn't tell where heaven stopped and the earth began.

- And you start telling a story about a person who you almost feel like exists.

And so you have to do that, I think so, even if when it's something very fictional.

[typewriter ding] [Narrator] You've been watching On Adapting Stories: A Conversation with Eric Roth on "On Story."

"On Story" is part of a growing number of programs in Austin Film Festival's On Story project.

That also includes the On Story radio program, podcast, book series, and the On Story archive, accessible through the Wittliff Collections at Texas State University.

To find out more about On Story and Austin Film Festival, visit onstory.tv or austinfilmfestival.com.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ [projector clicking] [typing] [typewriter ding] [projector dies]