[lounge music] ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ - The best response you can have to a payoff in a thriller is someone goes, "Oh, right, I forgot, of course..." [multiple voices chattering] [Narrator] "On Story" offers a look inside the creative process from today's leading writers, creators, and filmmakers.

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[waves] [kids screaming] [wind] [witch cackling] [sirens wail] [gunshots] [dripping] [suspenseful music] [telegraph beeping, typing] [piano gliss] From Austin Film Festival, this is "On Story."

A look inside the creative process from today's leading writers, creators, and filmmakers.

This week's "On Story," "John Wick" creator, Derek Kolstad.

- Some of the best action sequences in film are not action, but the way it's cut, if the music works, the way it's written, you're like, "This is an action sequence."

And you're just on the edge of your seat.

So a lot of times when you write this, you have to think of every scene as, in essence, action, because that's what we're there for.

And yet you still have those moments of humor and of, "Ah, that's why I'm rooting for him."

[paper crumples] [typing] [typewriter ding] - This week on "On Story, writer Derek Kolstad reflects on his thrilling career, how he weaves emotion and humanity into action set pieces, and crafting characters you cannot help but root for.

[typewriter ding] I pulled out my copy of "Scorn," which was the original title for "John Wick," and he said it wasn't that long ago that he wrote it.

And it feels like "John Wick" has been around for a really long time, so that kind of surprised me.

So, what was the journey to get that script to production?

- Well, you know, I came out to LA probably 99, 2000 from the Midwest.

And, you know, because of "John Wick," I was a 15-year overnight success, you know?

At the time of "John Wick," I had optioned this screenplay called "Acolyte," that was originally called "Simple Man," and it was making all the rounds.

Sonja and I, my wife, on Friday nights, it was make pizza, have rum and coke, watch bad movies and have a good time.

And we watched two movies that weren't necessarily bad, but it was, you know, they were both revenge thrillers, and I was just like, ah, I've never done a revenge thriller.

And so I couldn't sleep that night, and the first thing that came to my head was "The Continental" of all places, because I grew up loving those old east German, west German spy movies.

And whenever they were in Switzerland, they were like, "Oh hey, you wanna grab a drink?"

And then they laughed, and then they tried to kill each other, you know?

And then the idea of the dog, you know, it was just like, we had seen that in various iterations in westerns where it's like, you killed my horse, you stole this, stole that.

[phone ringing] - Aurelio speaking.

- I heard you struck my son.

[Aurelio] Yes sir, I did.

- May I ask why?

- Yeah well, because he stole John Wick's car sir, and, uh, killed his dog.

[dramatic music] - Oh.

- And I remember giving it to Sonja so for the first time, 'cause she's the first line of defense, editor-wise, and I heard her in the other room go, "No."

You know, a big red X and then we talked through it.

But when you think about it, that first draft of "John Wick" like most first drafts, the puke draft was, you know, five, six, seven days.

And then I turned it in to the reps in January, I did their notes to the end of February.

There was a little bit of a bidding war, but my agent at the time, Charlie Ferraro, awesome dude, he said, you know, we've got some massive numbers out there, but to be honest, we should make it with Thunder Road because they wanna make it now.

And so I met with Thunder Road, we did their draft into March.

We went out to directors, and directors were all saying it should be his whole family.

Like, they should slaughter John's whole family.

And it was like, it's not the point, you know?

And then on a Friday afternoon at one, I got a call, and they were like, "Look, we got the weirdest thing, like Keanu Reeves called us.

He's heard about this script, he wants to read it.

Are you around?"

I'm like, cool.

I was like, I'll just get ready.

I [bleep] you not, like less than an hour later they're like, "What are you doing?"

And so I lived in Pasadena at the time and drove over to his house in the Hills, and you know, it's not too ostentatious, it is very, very much Hollywood elite.

But I walk in the front door, and Keanu is surprisingly tall, most actors are not, he's my height, and it's like, "Derek Kolstad."

[audience laughs] And he and I worked every weekend.

You know how in kindergarten you always refer to everyone as like both first and last names, that's kinda what he would do.

And we worked on it for two months and then he looked at me and he said, "I think I'm gonna do it."

And I'm like, "Oh, I thought you were."

[audience laughs] And then when you think about it, we shot in November.

So I started writing it in January, I sold it in February, shot in November.

And this is where it's like a little emotional right now.

Like all these pictures came up my phone, the premier for "John Wick" was seven years ago today.

- Oh wow.

- Yeah, so it was pretty cool.

[audience applauds] - Well, so that really is a Cinderella story.

- I know full well.

- But I wanna talk a little bit about the craft of it and what makes it such already, you know, an iconic, 'cause I do think of it as an iconic action film already.

And just in an interesting way of crafting it, just how you...

Which you also did with "Nobody," which is how you opened it.

The moment you opened the script and then you sandwich it at the close.

And in that one, you just have no idea what's just happened here, and then you go backwards and build the world for us, right?

- Because of "John Wick," and to be honest, because of "John Wick 2" and then especially three, when they were like, "Oh, you made a franchise."

Like the first one the reaction was a little bit like, "Loved it, flash in the pan."

Second one was like, oh, well, okay.

And then third one, like, all right, right?

Bob Odenkirk, who's not an action guy, and I'm talking from an audience member, like he doesn't watch action movies.

But he and his wife caught "John Wick" on the road and called my reps next day, saying, "Can Derek come in and talk?

I wanna do that."

Because a lot of actors when you think about it, you know, wanna be an Anna Jones or James Bond, or Laura Croft, or all these action stars.

And I had a dream the night before, and I told Sonja in the morning.

And she's like, "Oh, you gotta start with that."

And so I go over to Bob's offices and I sit down, and I was like, okay, so this is the dream I had last night.

You're sitting at the table, you're beaten [bleep], you're wearing glasses, they're broken.

Your ear is cut and kind of hanging, you've gotta missing tooth.

And the song, "Buy Me A Ticket On An Airplane," begins to play, and it's deafening but it's only in your head.

And you reach into your jacket and you bring out a pack of cigarettes.

And as you do that, you realize these two fingers are detached, they're just hanging down.

So you take the little band off and you tie them together, you light a cigarette, you've got a lighter with a bullet in it.

♪ I'm just a soul whose intentions are good ♪ ♪ Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood ♪ Then you reach in your pocket, you bring out a can of tuna.

♪ You know sometimes baby I'm so carefree ♪ ♪ And then you're bound to see my other side ♪ ♪ But I'm just a soul whose intentions are good ♪ In the other one, a little kitten.

♪ Oh Lord, please don't let... ♪ And then you lean back.

And as the song ends, cause it's a notoriously short song, someone off the screen says; - Who the [bleep] are you?

- Me, I'm... [dramatic music] - Smash cut to the title, "Nobody."

And there's silence in the room, and he goes, "You're hired."

[audience laughs] And of course, he's like, "Where do you go from there?"

I was like, I don't know, no idea, you know?

But that's the impetus for that, and, you know, and in many respects it's a love letter to the Bond movies.

[typewriter ding] - Well, so one of the things I think is interesting about both John Wick and Hutch Mansell is that they definitely have psychopathic tendencies, you know, they're doing terrible things, you know?

They both don't have control over themselves entirely.

So what is it that makes us like them?

- Well, it's weird because a lot of the what's been said in the first "John Wick," you know, like he's the devil, he's Baba Yaga.

- He once was an associate of ours.

We call him Baba Yaga.

[mysterious music] - The boogieman?

- Well, John wasn't exactly the boogieman.

[mysterious music] He was the one you send to kill the [bleep] boogieman.

[dramatic music] - He's very much like when you think of Clint Eastwood from "Unforgiven," you know, that scene at the end where he is like, "I've killed women and children," and, you know, he does that thing.

And you're like, oh, this isn't a hero or an antihero, this is a bad guy that just put on the wrong hat, you know?

And I think for "John Wick," it was looking at the rules of noir.

If I'm in the life and you're outside of it, especially in the movies of the 20s and 30s, you know, Jimmy Cagney and all that, and Bogart and stuff.

If you're a priest and you're a good priest, I give you as much money as I can.

Like if the orphanage is running down, I do a fundraiser.

But if you're in the life, I'm [bleep] hard on you, you know?

And I think it's a lot of that.

- In particular with "Nobody," the montage... Like you set up he's nobody.

But then it's, to me, the montage that says everything about the guy.

[Hutch panting] [Hutch slurps] [engine rumbles] [car honks] [keyboard clatters] [Hutch sighs] [footsteps] [dog barking] - Come on!

[bleep] - You missed the garbage.

[grunts] [grunts] [Hutch slurps] [footsteps] [car honks] [keyboard clatters] [dog barking] [car honks] [keyboard clatters] [tools whirring] [dog barking] - And normally I hate montages, I mean, they're really overused and often unnecessary.

But in here, by the time you end the montage with Hutch and the trash cans, and the breakfast, and the whole process, I know where he is.

So, you know, what was the thought about creating it that way, rather than giving us a little bit more information about who Hutch is.

- And honestly, to give credit where credit is due, that was the editor, and that was the producers, and that was the director.

The first act of "Nobody" was 38 pages long.

And it was all in there and it was all filmed, and everything in that montage were scenes.

You know how you can do 1,000 hours of work and then someone takes two and make it better?

And you could be pissed, but you're like you did that 1,000 hours to get to those two, to get that really cool scene.

- That part of it gives you the forgiveness for what comes next, right?

It's like, you know how he got to that spot.

He's fed up, it's like I'm done, I can't do this life anymore.

And then some of the things he does are questionable, you know, over a kitty cat bracelet.

[laughs] So at the same time you kind of forgive him, I don't know.

Did you guys forgive him for that?

Clearly, everybody loves Hutch Mansell.

The other scene though, that really I thought was incredibly telling, and I think it's only about two minutes is in "John Wick" when the dog jumps in his car, they drive to the gas station, the Russians are having their conversation.

But that moment in the car, is again, it's the same as that montage.

Everything we need to know about him to start us going is there.

- Nice ride.

Mustang.

Boss 429.

[hood clangs] She a 70?

- 69.

- Ah, beautiful car.

- Thanks.

[hood clangs] - How much?

- Excuse me?

- How much for the car?

- She's not for sale.

- Oh, I love dogs.

- "North by Northwest" is a weird movie because it's literally action sequence after action sequence and if you stop, you're like, what is this movie about?

[truck honking] [tires skidding] [plane engine roars] [explosion blasting] [dramatic music] - Get outta here, the other tank may blow.

[dramatic music] - And then you have that one scene where the guy... Like, all he says is he's a man who deals in secrets.

- Tell me, what's Van Damme up to?

- Oh, you could say he is a sort of importer, exporter.

- Of what?

- Oh, government secrets perhaps?

- Why didn't you grab him?

- There's still too much we don't know about his organization.

- Oh, I see.

- And you're like, oh cool, I accept, you know?

And so it's a lot of those hinting and alluding to a larger world still.

And then even in that scene with John, you can see him hesitate, you know?

Because one of the things that we always kind of went back and forth on is did he do this as an excuse to go back to what he was?

Or did the dog really mean that much to him?

Did his wife mean that much to him?

And over the evolution of it, it's like, it's the guy who really wants to go away through 1,000 bodies, you know?

- Well, you brought up "Unforgiven" earlier, and one of the greatest things about his characters, we never really, even at the end of the movie, know who the hell that guy was, right?

- Yeah.

- Like we don't know really what he did, we just get bits and pieces, and then you build it in your head.

And "John Wick" is definitely that way.

Like in one, you know, you get some of that back story, but not really all of it, you know?

I mean, you gave us a little bit more with Hutch Mansell, but not a whole lot.

- I start from not enough, you know, I don't go too far.

'Cause I like even keeping it a secret for myself so that I can kind of like, can I carve around it, you know?

But when you look at Hutch, you know, the term auditor, I think it was Bob and I just discussing what would be a cool word.

And, you know, like the best scene in "Jaws" is still the USS Indianapolis story, 'cause suddenly Robert Shaw... And if you watch them, they're all [bleep] drunk, you know?

But he tells this story and you're just on the edge of your seat as a kid and you get goosebumps, but it alludes to a larger world.

And so in everything we do, it's like you simplify the character, plot's important but should be lean, and you allude to a larger world.

Even if you don't see it.

[typewriter ding] - You have the success with that first "John Wick," and then you've got two and three in this short period of time.

You don't really leave us at the end of one with something that's like either way.

You know, in the crafting of that first one, what do you break down and keep to look at how you're gonna create those worlds again in two and three?

I mean, to me two and three are very different.

- Well, you know, one of the things about working with Chad, and myself, and why we're a yin and yang in this capacity is he tends to go super dark and I tend to go a little bit lighter.

But we both respect that, which has been good.

But Chad will want to paint himself into a corner and then we would discuss how to get the character out.

Like, you know, there are moments in movies, and I don't have anything off the top of my head, where you're like, the character you're rooting for does something so dark and you're like, I'm out.

You know?

Like I'll watch the rest of this, but I don't give a [bleep] now, you know?

And that was always him trying to go darker and us relying on each other to find that kind of perfect balancing act.

And for as simple as a story of "John Wick 2," is, it was hell in regards to the process because it was how big, how small, what story, what story now?

I think the other thing too is you either have to be consistent or you have to go darker.

Because one of the things that is weird about the "Lethal Weapon" movies, those first two movies are excellent.

And then you go to that third movie and there is this odd shift into lighter, humorous fair.

And then four is just like, let's bring on Chris Rock.

And it felt... Like they all have really cool scenes, and at the same time it kind of felt like dinner theater with money.

- Well, so in one as well, I mean it is dark.

It's certainly not in the zone of "Lethal Weapon" and "Diehard," because they seem real, right?

Like they could happen.

And maybe, I don't know, are you Russian?

- It's so funny because like the bad guys are Russian in "John Wick" just because we were looking at like casting availability and stuff like that, like I'll make them Russian.

In "Nobody" I think it was the Korean mafia, originally.

I can't remember.

And then Ilya Naishuller, who's an absolute talented delight, came on board, and he's Russian.

He's like, "We gotta make him Russian."

And I was like, "I don't wanna be that guy that makes Russians cannon fodder."

And he's like, "Yeah, but you do it so well, Derek."

And he's like, and Russians love it, we love being the bad guy.

[audience laughs] And so I was like, okay.

[upbeat music] Absolutely nothing against the Russians, it just happened to be like, oh, that fits, you know?

- So in your world crafting too, again with "Parabellum", you brought so many new people in.

Like essentially, we have these great characters who we are intrigued by in one, and then you have...

I mean it's a whole another setup, right?

Like the woman character, I'm terrible with names, but.

- The adjudicator?

[Barbara] Yeah, the adjudicator.

Oh, maybe she didn't have a name.

- Yeah.

I think she just says, "I am the adjudicator," yeah.

- But she again becomes such a key part of the film, I was surprised that she became so integral to what happens towards the end.

- It's kind of one of the reasons that when you watch some of our favorite franchises, it's the third or fourth one that there is that, not exposition dump, but it's like the curtain is fully pulled back.

But it works because it's action, right?

Some of the best action sequences in film are not action, you know?

It's that scene in "Tinker Taylor Soldier Spy" where Benedict Cumberbatch steals this file.

But the way it's cut, if the music works, the way it's written, you're like this is an action sequence.

[suspenseful music] ♪ ♪ - Hello?

Yes, 9460335.

[on phone] I'll be right on it, sir.

- Thank you.

[suspenseful music] - Peter Guillam, could we see you please?

Percy would like quite an urgent word with you.

If you can come now to the fifth floor, that would be so kind, thank you.

- And you're just on the edge of your seat.

So a lot of times when you write this, you have to think of every scene as in essence action, because that's what we're there for.

And yet you still have those moments of humor and of, ah, that's why I'm rooting for 'em.

- How much of the visuals in your action film scripts are direction to the director?

- So you can't look at action as a roadmap, you have to look at it as a catalyst for something cool.

Like, you know, sometimes your action will disappear or the scene will be completely different, but where you put it and why you put it there and how you wrote it, got them excited to do what was actually there on screen, you know?

But I was like the first one, and the number of times in a screenplay I'll say, "And he kicks his leg in to buckle at an unnatural angle."

And I hear Sonja from the other room, like, "Oh come on, gross."

- Can you give us an example of the bus, for instance, how did that look on the page?

- Very similar.

But Bob brought in the humor.

I mean, it was already kind of like...

The movie was designed to have drama, humor, action, all that kind of stuff, but like it was Bob to do like, he gets punched and he rolls with it and hits his head.

And there's a little bit of like, you know, "Keystone Cops" about that, a little bit of the kung-fu.

And he brought in all of those elements of humor, and yet a lot was on the page, even when you know, Bob's thrown through the window and then gets up.

And the two things that Bob wanted to do but couldn't do is being thrown through the window of the bus, kinda makes sense.

And then in his house, in the siege, being thrown over the table.

Because the danger there is if he rolls an ankle, you're out for two or three days and that's super expensive.

So he begrudgingly said, "Okay."

And then of course the stunt went wrong, 'cause if you watched the movie, he's thrown through the window and the guy's leg snags.

And so Bob onset came up with the limp, and then to the bus driver, who was really kinda like what's going on.

He's like...

But then when he walks inside, I still love the one guy going, "Oh, come on."

So a lot of that's in the script, even up to the point where the whole time he's not killing them until he lands that 'killing blow' on the guy and then pauses and grabs the knife and the straw.

That was all there, you know?

- But you're still involved in John Wick's life.

- Not really.

- Not really?

- I mean, I'm not writing-- - I mean, you're not writing the script for the next one?

- No, because you know, at a certain point, these things become bigger than you.

You don't want to be that guy that's like, hold up for me, or like I never wanna [bleep] anything.

But dude, it got me my career, it's my grandfather's name, and just all of those things.

You just, you root for it.

And it isn't a matter of being cynical and saying, "Wow, writers are disposable or expendable."

It's just recognizing the world for what it is.

And also saying, "Dude, I get to do that again.

I get to world build again."

[typewriter ding] [Narrator] You've been watching On Writing "John Wick," a Conversation with Derek Kolstad on "On Story."

On Story is part of a growing number of programs in Austin Film Festival's On Story project.

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To find out more about On Story and Austin Film Festival, visit onstory.tv or austinfilmfestival.com.

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