[lounge music] ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ [Narrator] On Story is brought to you in part by the Alice Kleberg Reynolds Foundation, a Texas family providing innovative funding since 1979.

"On Story" is also brought to you in part by the Bogle Family Vineyards, six generation farmers and third generation winemakers based in Clarksburg, California.

Makers of sustainably grown wines that are a reflection of the their family values since 1968.

[waves] [kids screaming] [wind] [witch cackling] [sirens wail] [gunshots] [dripping] [suspenseful music] [telegraph beeping, typing] [piano gliss] From Austin Film Festival, this is "On Story," a look inside the creative process from today's leading writers, creators and filmmakers.

This week on "On Story," we're joined by veteran television writer Joanna Calo, showrunner of celebrated FX hit "The Bear."

- I think it's totally intentional because it's absolutely true of that world and our world.

I mean, the fact that I think we all feel anxious and that world is so high pressure that if you're going to tell an honest story about what it's like to work in those kitchens, then it has to feel that way.

[paper crumples] [typing] [carriage returns, ding] [Narrator] Joanna delves into her experience sharing showrunning duties with creator Christopher Storer and crafting lovable characters that keep an audience invested.

[typewriter dings] - You're technically the showrunner, right?

- Yes.

- So, what the showrunner on that show means, because obviously, it's different on many shows, can you talk a little bit about what it means for your role in everything from the creation, development, fulfillment of what we see in that two seasons?

- Yeah, I mean, I think, well, I'm the co-showrunner.

Chris and I do it together.

My main role is running the writer's room and getting the scripts out.

And then, once we go into production, Chris is more focused on the directing.

And that's because that's the, those are the worlds that we come from, and he comes from directing world, I come from writing.

And then, obviously, he's in the writer's room, and then, you know, I've been able to direct as well.

So, it's like we share in a way that's really particular to us.

But it was a show that he created, or a world that he had created, and then I came on in the development phase and it kind of became, I don't know, what it is.

I mean, honestly, I feel like our show, our show is what it is because every single piece just happened to line up in a certain way.

It's like, it feels very magical sometimes that he and I, we just met.

We just met on a Zoom.

It wasn't interesting in any way.

I didn't know him.

He was just a guy, and I was like, "Oh, who's this guy?"

[audience laughing] And then we, but I was like, "I really love this.

I really love this world."

There's such beautiful energy in those early scripts that he had been working on.

I do think that part of what was exciting for us was looking at all the media about restaurants that existed already and figuring out what hadn't been done.

And it felt like there was a glaring hole, which was an actual real experience.

And there was this cultural idea of chefs as like rock stars, and it's like, that's actually not what their lives are like.

And that felt really worthwhile.

And I do think that FX got that and was excited about that.

And then, FX was honestly the most excited about creating a group of people that you, group of characters that you would fall in love with and wanna stay with.

And I actually thought that was a really interesting part of the development was, as much as you want it to be stylish or natural or whatever, but we have to love these people and we have to wanna see them.

We wanna come back to them every day.

And that has been really inspirational to me as I go and do other things where it's like, ultimately, even if your world is harsh, you have to love the people.

The first season of our show was super pandemic, so we had to do it by ourselves out in the dead of winter in Chicago anyway.

So, I think it's created a weird, we have our own culture of the show just because it happened in a strange time.

- That world is so its own culture anyway.

I mean, the love-hate relationship of every family at a restaurant is, so, I'm gonna it get out of the way really quickly, the elephant in the room on the show, which is just sheer anxiety of every character and sometimes the anxiety that you feel.

Do you feel anxiety when you watch some of these episodes?

[Audience] Yeah.

- You're terrible at this.

You're no good at it.

Go faster [bleep].

Keep going faster.

Why are you so slow, why are you so [bleep] slow?

Why?

You think you're so tough.

Yeah, why don't you say this?

Say, "Yes, chef, I'm so tough."

- Yes, chef, I'm so tough.

- Say [bleep] "Yes, chef, I'm so tough."

- Yes, chef, I'm so tough.

- You are not tough.

You are bull [bleep].

You are talentless, say [bleep] "Hands."

- Hands.

[Chef] You should be dead.

[ominous music] - I think it's totally intentional because it's absolutely true of that world and our world.

I mean, the fact that we all, I think we all feel anxious and that world is so high pressure that if you're going to tell an honest story about what it's like to work in those kitchens, then it has to feel that way.

It's a dream to make people feel things.

I'm sorry that sometimes it's bad things, [audience laughing] but that's so cool.

And I don't, I think when you talk to chefs and you hear their stories, and that's a part of our room, which is really special.

They're all like that.

It's like, all the craziest [bleep] day, every single day.

And so, if you didn't make the show like that, it wouldn't be, it wouldn't be true.

- So, you wrote the first couple of episodes together, the two of you, or did they, is that what they ended up being, or did they ended up being the material that the rest of the episodes ultimately, once you brought people on, would be culling from?

- No, so, yeah.

It was, Chris had written a movie originally, and then when he started to develop it without me, it was like, here's how to turn that movie into a couple of scripts, and then here's all this other cool stuff that could be part of the season.

And then, the way it goes is you're actually breaking the episodes together.

So, I'm like, "Okay, for episode three, it's this.

Episode four, it's this."

And then, it's like, "Oh, that great idea you had, let's make that this one."

It's like that work, and then it starts becoming smaller and smaller and smaller.

So, you're like, "Here's the larger scope of the season.

Here's, this is too many, get rid of that.

This is, we're missing a hole, here," or, "We're missing an energy burst here."

That kind of conversation.

But then, we did have the room for the actual breaking of episodes, of like what happens at the beginning of episode three.

It is a weird thing with our show where it's like, it's less, it's not as, it's not like any other experience I've ever had where you're literally just staring at a blank page.

We almost never have a blank page just because we have so much.

But then, last year, we did so many great interviews.

There's so many true stories that you can literally just take and then put onto a character arc.

I don't know, maybe we're cheating.

- Well, it seems to be working if you're cheating.

[Joanna laughing] [typewriter dings] One of the pieces of the development of the first season that I thought was really interesting was how you give us these tasters of each character.

We didn't really learn about a lot of these characters, and they're not, I feel like not traditionally developed in the first, in the pilot, and even in episode two or three, you're really getting them bit by bit.

And nuggets, when you get one, and sometimes surprising nuggets, right?

So, what, you said that what they cared about were the characters in here, and they're people we would love, and I feel like we're falling in love with them.

It's wonderful to get these sort of petals of these people bit by bit.

So, I'd love to hear how you approach that, especially if you're taking real material from people's lives and injecting it.

- Well, I mean, I think it's a testament to FX that they let us not show you who the character is going to become in the pilot, because I do think that that is common now.

There's so much work on putting everything in the pilot, and I get it conceptually, but that's obviously not how humans work.

You aren't, you can, if you're going to change, it's probably temporary.

And then, or if you do it, or if you do actually change, it takes a while.

And so, they let us let them be, which I really appreciate.

But again, that's from it being just honest of like, how many people would actually be in this kitchen.

We don't have to know all of them the same amount, but they all need to exist in this space.

I think it just becomes like, yeah, it's like it's just a math problem.

But my favorite moment of the first season is when, in the review, when you come around and you see Marcus drop the donuts and they pop up, it was just such a beautiful mix of a great moment for that character, and I love Lionel so much and he's such a good actor.

And also, being, having the camera there and catching the moment where I was like, "This is the height of some nice work."

[laughs] - Bits and pieces of, like, let's take Richard, for example, because you really, he was one guy in season one, for the most part.

- Yes.

- And then, in season two, we have that episode "Forks."

- Yes.

You know, it's weird.

I feel like I grew up in New Jersey, and Chris, obviously, is from Chicago, but there are Richies, Richies abound in all these cities.

And so I think it was like, I dated a Richie for sure in high school.

- Right?

I mean, Bill Murray says it to me.

The king, [bleep] Bill Murray!

- Yeah, I know, I understand who that is.

- If you call me, you can hear it.

- I get it.

- Call me!

I still got it.

I believe you.

- It's still on my phone!

- I'm good.

- Really?

- Thank you.

- You don't wanna hear it?

- You guys were at a bar at 6:45 in the morning?

- Yeah, but I, the, the whole point of it is that... - Chris and I always loved him.

And so, we, but we knew that that was sort of the job, where I'm like, "Okay, where do we see this?

Where do we see the softness of him?

Where do we see his potential?"

And then, I will also say that this is a real thing about this industry, which is that it takes all people, and people do get inspired by the lifestyle.

They get inspired by the rules.

Like, someone like Richie, it's like he's so opinionated about his [bleep], but then if you give him this other thing to be opinionated about, be opinionated about, but it's a little classier, there's fun, that's fun.

There are all these people who, you work at these restaurants your whole life and you work your way up, or you start as a, you start as a runner and you work your way up to being the GM.

And that's just a real story and it was cool to make it fit on him.

And again, he's just such a good actor that you can love him while you hate him.

- The whole season one, I'm like, "Okay, what is going on with Tina?

What, who is she really?"

Because she was kind of a mystery.

She's so close to the vest.

And then, that episode in season two where she karaoke, I don't know the name of the episode, but where the karaoke thing happens?

I mean, I was floored.

♪ Matters most of all ♪ [singing in Spanish] [singing in Spanish] [singing in Spanish] - What we wanted to do was say that in season two, they're all being pushed into these new places.

And especially for the older characters and for Richie, it's like they're so, they've really just been doing things one way.

It's really hard when you're older to try to be better.

I feel like when being a director for the first time at 41 or whatever I was, it was really hard to step in, as I was like, "Well, I'm having to grow.

I'm having to learn."

And it's easier to learn when you're younger.

And so, I think we just knew she was gonna have some emotionally vulnerable moment, because that's what goes along with that theme.

It kind of didn't matter, to some extent, what it was.

She's throwing herself in a new situation.

And so, it was like a way to, it's all the same story.

It's like, what is it like to not go to The Beef every day, but instead to go to this school with young people and to put yourself out there?

- Okay, so now we're going to "Fishes," which is, I'm sure you've talked about it too many times.

- There are certain episodes of this show that just-- - Jimmy, I'm sorry, I'm sorry-- [Joanna] Materialized.

- I told him not to listen to you.

I told him not to help.

I told him to tell you to go scratch!

- Thanks a whole [bleep] lot, buddy.

You come back next year, okay?

[Lee] Mother [bleep]!

- It's fine, this is totally fine.

- Yeah, it's [bleep], it's fine!

It's fine because this guy's nothing and he's nobody.

And I know you're, you're scared and you're afraid, aren't you, Michael?

And Michael, I don't know what, what the [bleep] you're on, but whatever it is, if you can hear me through the fog, throw another fork at me, you're gonna get [bleep] rocked!

- Some of these stories are real from Chris' life.

And then we had sort of had this conversation about holiday meals and it was just this thing.

It was, we were gonna do it season one, and then we didn't have room.

And I think it's so great that we waited to season two.

Again, that's like a weird happy accident.

I'll also say, Jon Bernthal was our dream cast for anything.

Like, he was that he was just on our minds from the beginning.

And then, so it was about sort of like overpopulating it.

We just, we love that idea of, how does it make it feel like you're really there?

Which is like, you kind of remember your cousin's name, you know what I mean?

You don't know who everyone is, but you do.

But you see them once a year, and there's the one person that isn't from there, isn't from the family.

It just became like this fun game of, how many people can you put in a room?

And then, everyone's talking at the same time.

I mean, it would've felt fake if they weren't all talking at the same time.

And people are drinking.

People are drinking too much.

People have problems.

And then, also, so much of it is built on the food and the insanity that people make this food.

I mean, and I think with the similar math of Bernthal where it's like, well, it's their mom, so it has to be someone that punches you in the face when she turns around.

And so, it was sort of like, and I guess it could've been an amazing theater unknown actress.

It doesn't have to have been a celebrity, but we definitely had that conversation at a certain point.

But 100%, it was just characters.

And like, we, I'm really proud of that episode because it was, I think, just the best of what we do, and that it was like, I like helping to structure it, and then writing it, and then writing it together, and then Chris rewriting it in, those are just the sounds in Chris' head.

He has that rhythm in his head.

But it was all about these big character moments.

And getting to the car at the end, I think, was my dream of just making sure that feels like this punctuation, and really, in one episode, explaining why all those kids are the way they are seemed... was the assignment.

- No.

Nobody out there gives a [bleep] about me.

[Carmen] That's not true.

Mom, that's not true.

We all love you so much.

- I had to beg you to come home.

- I'm happy to be here, okay?

I am, mom, I'm really happy to see you.

[typewriter dings] - The apparition of Mike, which I actually think is really an, could be called an incredible device, but he's so much more, right?

- Michael is like this imaginary person to some extent.

And I think that was something cool that we got to talk about is, as an addict, he is sort of unknowable.

He has all these different sides to him, like the good is so good, the bad is really bad.

The bad is really hidden.

And I love that line in season one about, "He was my best friend, but I didn't know him."

And I think that's very real.

And so, again, that he was an apparition when he was alive, too.

So, I think, just, but like I said, we weren't sure if you were gonna see him.

I think if you didn't get the absolute best, right person for that role, I think it would've been weird.

But Bernthal was like, had such the perfect amount of, you'd recognize him, and that star quality that I think Michael has.

So, while I don't, they're not the same person at all, there was a level, there was a level of onscreen awareness of him and specialness to him that made him seem like the perfect person.

- After the end of season one, I was sort of like, I had a bit of trepidation just because I thought, "There's no way they're gonna top this, right?

You just can't do that."

So, then, you tie it, which I think is brilliant, to the opening of this place.

Here, this is where we're all going, now.

We're now all on a journey together.

I'd really like to hear about, how were you talking about how you were going to show each person, and then, what experience would tie to what, and the process, and that's all, it's complicated.

- Yes, it is complicated.

I will say that, basically, what I said over and over at the beginning of season two was, "Well, it's gonna suck and everyone's gonna hate it, so let's just do whatever we want."

Because it's like, when you like a show, then you're like, "Well, here's what I would do," or, "Here's what I wanna see more of."

And I just, we can't make that happen for everyone.

So, I was like, "Let's just imagine we're disappointing everyone and just do some of the stuff we forgot to do, and then let's spend more time with our characters."

Which is all that seemed important to me about being able to do 10.

That was the first part.

The other big part of our thinking was, you could start season two where the restaurant's open, you know what I, but we realized how fascinating the actual building of these places is.

And Matty would talk to us about building restaurants and just how insane it was.

And we were like, "Perfect.

Okay, great."

And then, you have this natural thing, right?

It's like, not only is that really specific to this world, really interesting, and stories, things I didn't know, rules I didn't know, all that stuff.

But also, you're leading to a built-in big finish, which is a dream, to not have to manufacture that stuff.

We had just had these ideas about wanting to spend a little more time with Sydney, wanting to spend a little more time with Marcus, and then, um, and Coco, Chris' sister, it's basically her and Matty do the food for us and our food consultants would talk to us about a day out for a chef, and she would, we had heard that idea in the first season of what it's actually like on your one day off, or whatever.

And it just sounded so cool and weird.

And so, that was something.

Lionel actually got to go to Copenhagen first season to learn how to bake, and yeah, or to stage at a bakery, And it was just such a special, crazy experience that we were like, "Well, let's show people what that is."

- I'm really curious about this episode, about whether anybody at FX said, and I mean, it's FX, so maybe not, but said, "That's maybe a little far."

When Carmy and Richard go to the kids' party, And I mean, I was even sitting there, thinking, "What?

That just happened and we're not," thinking this is maybe something that could get the show in trouble?

[Joanna] I actually forgot about that episode.

[audience laughing] I think they liked it because it was more like comedy.

I think, when you didn't know what the show was going to be, you had to see what the show was going to be to understand it.

So, I think on paper, they were like, "Oh, that's funny, right?"

And we were like, "Yes."

And so, I think they were happy.

[laughs] - How much real-life research are these actors doing to do these jobs that they're stirring and baking?

- Yeah, I mean, we make them learn how to it.

I mean, I think, Jeremy gets the most training because he's the most trained.

Ayo really likes, I mean, she got a lot of training, but also it's really good for her to train with Jeremy because they encourage each other and are competitive in a fun way.

But it was really about the physical embodiment and being able to hand them a real knife and not have them be scared, because we really didn't wanna do hand models, but it's all them.

- We talked a lot about these really great moments with people.

But the thing that I think the show does really beautifully with the characters and also the character development is the failure part, is that it embraces each character's failures in addition to those really wonderful moments that they have.

Even, even Sydney, I mean, God, she's so anxious, and Robert Townsend was the perfect dad for her.

But that part, when they have those little failures, it just makes me invested more in them.

And I feel like that failure of Carmy, I really feel like I'm gonna get something more out of Carmy now.

- I don't remember exactly how soon we knew the ending, but I think the larger idea of, change is gradual, and you do, you go back and forth.

You make gains in one way, but then when it's actually tested in another, you realize you actually aren't fixed at all.

And I think that felt like a real thing that we knew we wanted to explore.

I also think one of the things we're always interested in with Carmy is, how much does his trauma and his toxic learning actually make him good at his job?

Do you have to beat yourself up to be excellent?

And obviously, I think he's wrong.

I think what's actually interesting to me the most about the finale is that they have him.

They have him, but that's not enough for him.

You know, he's on his own journey.

- How much has this show, you directing, the way you're getting to write episodes, the way you guys are working as a family sort of team of really feeling like you got this great magic, how much has that added to you personally as your storytelling craft and just growing you for whatever comes next?

- I mean, I think I've grown leaps and bounds.

The directing has been such a, it's such a dream come true and it's something that I really wanted.

And so, I think I was always seeing things that way, but I really didn't understand what it was until I did it.

But I think it's really broken open my ability to tell stories visually or be thinking about that.

It really is such a different job.

It's like, going, like I was, I'm such a writer and I believe in writers and I believe in writing.

And then you get on set and you're like, "Well, none of this makes any sense or sounds good."

And then you're like, "Oh, [bleep] I guess, whatever."

So, it's kind of an interesting, that's been such a great process.

I also, again, I have two babies, so it's like being able to do it as a team is such, I'm so lucky, and I wouldn't be able to do it.

I mean, I barely did it as it is, so I think that's really special.

But at the end of the day, you have to try to keep finding your own voice and finding out who your own voice is at every year, at every step.

I think I would hate to come out of "The Bear" and only be able to write "The Bear," but I try to take what's great about it with me as I go forward.

[typewriter dings] [Narrator] You've been watching a conversation with Joanna Calo on "On Story".

"On Story" is part of a growing number of programs in Austin Film Festival's On Story Project that also includes the "On Story" radio program, podcast, book series, and the On Story archive accessible through the Wittliff Collections at Texas State University.

To find out more about "On Story" and Austin Film Festival, visit onstory.tv or austinfilmfestival.com.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ [projector clicking] [typing] [typewriter ding] [projector dies]